How restrictive is PA license?

[paelleon]

Hi LW fans,

I'm new to the boards, and only recently back to LW as a gamebook. I only played the originals a few times, and then as a young'un. I was actually more interested in Freeway Warrior ...

Anyways - the question I want to ask is: How much wiggle room is there in the Project Aon license? I want to start work on a facebook app allowing you to play through the LW series. But I'd like to do a few things differently from the usual reproductions of the original works.

Firstly - I'd need to add in illustrations, whether they be the original ones, or some extra's - added in to make it more visual.

I'd also like to remove the section numbers, I'd keep them in the backend, and the DB; but it's unneccesary for the user to click on a button to go to "section 34" or "section 56"; rather label the buttons "go left" or "go right".

Also - could you combine sections where no decision needs to be made? And could you remove some of the instructive text explaining what you need to mark down on the action sheet - since that's controlled by the program?

I'd also love to shift the dedications and pre-story blurb (Story so far, wisdom of the Kai, etc) to seperate sections accessible if needed, but not forced on the player.

You know - cosmetic changes that make the gameplay more interactive, and less web-based faithful recreation of the book. Does the license allow that sort of editing?

[alderaine]

Hiya

I'll chip in a first pass, and others can expand as needed.

One of the things we like to ensure with any representations of the books is that they retain the feeling of being a book. This means showing the section numbers is considered essential, as they are the essence of the work.

You don't have to force the user to "turn to section X" - a button next to each option that takes them to the destination is sufficient for this purpose, as long as the destination does show the section number.
Note that there are a number of puzzles in the books where a number is the solution, and that is the number you must turn to - so that could pose a challenge!

This is further componded by the following (paraphrased to save time) statement from our legal constraints:
"All book content material must be sourced from the AON website" - that would make it potentially difficult to make certain changes on the fly, since the standards can vary in places.

Most game engine attempts take the page content directly from AON, but then interpret it through the use of their own "navigation" files, which are simple instructions to the program on how to process each page.

You may find there will be legal issues around using Facebook for copyrighted material - true it is free, but my understanding is that it essentially "pushes" the application to friends, rather than our normal model where people come to AON to download the apps. This may introduce risks.

"Fan Art" is already used in one of our book readers, so I don't think the use of extra illustrations is a problem. The use of original illustrations would have to be constrained to context - i.e. they are displayed along with their book page, in appropriate context.

In terms of combining sections, I would have to say a definite "no" - referring to the comment above about ensuring section numbers are preserved. You could present both sections on the same physical screen, but the section numbers would need to be shown.

Changes that are the result of the program doing the work for you could be acceptable as they don't materially change the book content - BUT I've not seen this done before - usually, the original text is preserved, but the program just does it for you. I'll need to defer this to the more legally knowledgeable.

I think most software players do shift the non-essential documentation to optional areas. It is essential that the player has easy access to license information (e.g. on the download page of the website, and in an "about" window) - but information that doesn't make sense in a software version can usually be left to one side as long as the user can access it.

Bottom line - some of what you ask is possible, but take great care. Take a look at the existing software solutions for examples (such as Seventh Sense) - these have been out for some time, so should be legally "safe" by now.

[Peregrine]

Hi Paelleon,

At the outset, I'd like to say that I'm not a lawyer, and as far as I know, neither is Alderaine (feel free to correct me there, mate ). So while we'll offer you our best advice, you can't really rely on what we say if push comes to legal shove.

Now that the obligatory disclaimer is out of the way, let me offer an opinion on the matter that differs a bit from Alderaine's.

About presenting the books in a different way

The Project Aon licence does not prevent you making any of the stylistic changes you specify. Our remit is to adapt the Lone Wolf books and other works into "Internet Editions"; in practice, these take many forms, including the HTML books, PDFs, and of course the source XML files.

The Project Aon licence doesn't even touch the subject of reader software. It has no more effect on how "Lone Wolf Reader App 9000" works than it does on how Mozilla Firefox or Adobe Reader work; these are all programs that can be used to read Project Aon Internet Editions. Therefore, you can introduce whatever stylistic elements you like into your reader software, including extra/alternative illustrations, rearranged section presentation, etc.

Alderaine is right about how things are "usually" done, preserving some of the feel of a gamebook; but you specifically say that you want to move away from that a bit, and it's only convention, not the Project Aon licence, that would stop you from doing that.

About modified formats of the books themselves

The Project Aon licence is targeted at readers, not at the PA team (and as soon as you get into the business of tinkering with PA files, you're part of the team ); it doesn't really say anything about how we can adapt the books into Internet Editions, or whether and where we would exceed our mandate if we offered files structured the way you describe. But as you say, the database and back end could still work with section numbers and the like; what really matters is how it's presented to the reader.

Our XML files are pretty flexible in that regard -- nobody can dispute that they are a faithful adaptation of the books, but your software could read and digest them in such a way that it does exactly what you suggest. (Oh, they'd certainly be more useful like that with certain modifications, but there's sporadic ongoing discussion about how to produce a "common navigation format" for software readers to understand the books.)

So in short: there is nowhere that you would run afoul of the Project Aon licence, or risk overstepping the Project Aon mission, if your stylistic changes are in the software's presentation rather than in the book files. And that's exactly what you've described.

About a Facebook app

Ah, here's where the bad news starts. The Project Aon licence very clearly states that only specific "Distribution Points" are allowed to distribute PA's Internet Editions; right now, that means the projectaon.org website. Even showing the PA pages within a frame on another website's page is not allowed.

The Project Aon licence is, to borrow terms from the free software community, a "free as in beer" (free of charge, gratis) licence, but not a "free as in speech" (freedom, lack of restrictions) licence. Existing software works on the following principles, not as a matter of convention, but as a matter of licensing:

1. The reader agrees to the Project Aon licence.
2. The reader downloads files containing the books (in some format or another) from our website.
3. The software digests the book files and displays its digested layout to the reader.

...or...

1. The reader visits an online play aid hosted on our website.
2. The reader agrees to the Project Aon licence.
3. The play aid accesses and displays the book files, which are also hosted on our website.

That pretty much precludes a Facebook app that in any way embeds, displays or redistributes the books, I'm sorry to say.

Edited to add: Just to throw some ideas out there...

You could perhaps write an online play aid that integrates with Facebook in some manner. For example, a Facebook user could display a "Lone Wolf status" on their page, saying "I'm a Scion-Kai, I've died five times, and I'm currently up to section 112 of The Prisoners of Time."

This would fetch its data via some Web API from a play aid hosted on projectaon.org; whenever a player/Facebook user continues their saved game that they've attached to their FB account, friends viewing their Facebook page would see their progress updated. You couldn't play directly on the Facebook website, but clicking the status box would send a Facebook user to your play aid on this site, letting them start up their own Facebook-integrated LW game.

Further disclaimer: I don't use Facebook and am relying on second-hand reports of its operation in concocting this scenario!

[pi4t]

Is it OK to copy-paste the text and links to the illustrations to a private message system? (I'm currently doing this, on the system on grepolis.com)

[Peregrine]

Properly speaking, it's not one of the expressly permitted forms of distribution; however, the amount of copyrighted material being shared (assuming a normal play-through, passing through a minority of sections), and the limited private distribution involved, will probably mean that (a) you're covered by fair use, fair dealing, or some other copyright exception, and/or (b) you won't be seen as violating the spirit of the authors' intentions in making their works available online.

Again, not a lawyer...

[Dave]

pi4t,
You are definitely okay. In a discussion of whether it was legal for a forum community (outside of the project Aon precinct) to engage in a playthrough of the books, with the text and pics copied directly from the project aon sources into the thread, it was determined by the big man himself (Joe Dever) that such a use was just fine, so doing the same thing via a PM/IM system is also going to be just fine.

For the original poster,
I can imagine a web-based app that pulls all information from the PA site, hosts any needed data files on the PA, and ensures that players agree to the license, etc. It seems possible as long is it is *not* a self contained project that contains actual copyrighted images or text.

I see no reason not to be able to do something like that, but it would simply take some careful planning.

[paelleon]

Hi Guys

Thanks for the responses. Sorry I've been tardy myself. I was off for easter, so missed the interweb for a couple of days.

I'm getting the sense that this is a bit of a grey area. If, as Dave says I keep all the source material on PA; but simply access it via a flash app, which runs on fb - then would I be stepping on any toes? I could include the license requirement easily enough. What worries me is the statement by Peregrine:

Even showing the PA pages within a frame on another website's page is not allowed

Since in that case, the source files are hosted on PA's website - just accessed via another site.

The rest of the changes I've proposed seem to be acceptable - so it's really a question of whether the proposed app is allowed.

[Thomas Wolmer]

Apr 4, 2010 20:33:16 GMT Dave said:

You are definitely okay. In a discussion of whether it was legal for a forum community (outside of the project Aon precinct) to engage in a playthrough of the books, with the text and pics copied directly from the project aon sources into the thread, it was determined by the big man himself (Joe Dever) that such a use was just fine, so doing the same thing via a PM/IM system is also going to be just fine.

A comment on this: What happened was that Joe Dever gave RPGnet a direct permission to to post the section texts as part of playthroughs of the books, but he has to my knowledge never said that it is generally allowed.

[Thomas Wolmer]

Apr 6, 2010 8:04:09 GMT paelleon said:

I'm getting the sense that this is a bit of a grey area. If, as Dave says I keep all the source material on PA; but simply access it via a flash app, which runs on fb - then would I be stepping on any toes? I could include the license requirement easily enough. What worries me is the statement by Peregrine:

Even showing the PA pages within a frame on another website's page is not allowed

Since in that case, the source files are hosted on PA's website - just accessed via another site.

The critical part of the PA license is this paragraph in section 2.2:

Redistribution includes but is not limited to displaying the Internet Editions within the graphical representation of an Internet site other than the Distribution Point. This prohibition includes but is not limited to the use of HTML 'frames'.

A Facebook app definitely runs "within the graphical representation of an Internet site other than the Distribution Point", so I think the PA license clearly does not allow a Facebook app. You'd need an explicit permission from Joe Dever to create one.

[Zipp]

Indeed. To do a facebook application would be a redistribution of the books on a website outside of Project Aon.

It is a good idea for spreading Lone Wolf love, though. Might want to talk to Dever about it. Zwynga and similar companies made huge fan bases for themselves through facebook. Wouldn't hurt our community one bit.

[Dave]

Looks like I was wrong... Sorry for any misinformation!

[paelleon]

Okay - great. But how do I get in touch with Mr Dever? I think it would be well received and massive for the LW series as a whole.

[Zipp]

I don't know how you contact Dever, but I hope someone from PA helps you out, because it is a really good idea. Could you actually devote enough time to do it all by yourself, or do you have a team ready? Before you approach Dever, you should have something ready to show him and some way of showing that you're serious and can actually accomplish your goal and are not just dreaming.

[paelleon]

Thanks Zipp.

That's a good idea. I was going to get the go ahead first, but yeah - I can code the flash first and show him the flash application. Gonna be some serious part time though ... I'm a n00b at flash, but colleagues say it's the best way to code for facebook. The database and story mechanics I can get going and then input some artwork to snazz it up a bit.

So - with that in mind, and the question marks over the eventual success of the project - anybody want to collaborate on some flash loveliness? I've got a few people my end, but the more the merrier.

[alderaine]

Referring back to an earlier post, nope - not a lawyer myself, but I am a Business Analyst so do deal with elements of ensuring caution is present where needed
In terms of the license itself, as worded (and has been quoted by a few posters) - there is no wriggle room. The wording is legal.
In terms of interpreting that wording, it would be at the recipient's risk (hence why all advice errs on the side of caution.)

Aiming to contact Joe directly is an excellent approach, and the advice here is sound - have a working model to run with. I would ensure that at least the first 2 or 3 books are covered (the reason being that by book 3, you will really be used to the challenges which change every book!) The word of warning is that most projects stall at book 2 or 3 - get past those, and you are making good steam.

Another option is to aim for a game based on the Lone Wolf world. The commercial license for this is still out there somewhere, but I'm pretty sure the Facebook license hasn't been snatched up yet! I would guess that's where challenges may appear though - where there is a commercial games license (as in this case) it would be less likely for a community license to be granted (hence why most Facebook apps are based on new material.)

It will be great to see this project take off, so do keep us posted.