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Post by egleris on Aug 14, 2010 9:47:32 GMT
Yeah, that was about my point; it's still not that useful, but I feel it could safely share the place of "worst discipline" whit AK whitout it being a stretch.
One has to wonder why Nexus is among the best Magnakai while MoM share the spot of worst Kai with AK. Talk about leveling up...
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Post by pi4t on Aug 14, 2010 10:28:22 GMT
What limits its potential is that unlike in the original, where it doesn't matter if you lose, say 4E in a fight because 4 fight free sections and you're healed, it does make a difference since you have a 30% chance of not healing them all and having lost that E permanently (or until you receive healing from elsewhere). If you want an in game reason for this, it could be that energy needs to be released for the healing to take place, by doing a strenuous activity: ie fighting.
The other healing method feels very arbitrary, and make the discipline boring. I hate that that method's in the NO books at all. It makes the discipline boring, especially its upgrades. 'What Magnakai disciplines do I have? Ooh, I can choose my weaponmastery weapons. Ooh, I can control the elements (well, nearly). Ooh, I can - heal 20E instead of 10E per book?' Boring!
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Post by egleris on Aug 14, 2010 10:37:48 GMT
Ah, but Curing has that problem regardless in the Magnakai series; I know for certain that it's among the last three disciplines for everybody, isn't it? And why is that...? You know it, as do I and everybody else; is because of Healing still being there healing you. Curing would need empowering in the Magnakai series regardless; if it was up to me, I would say:
1 - it heal also non-battle wounds (as is right now, the only improvement until you get to archmaster) 2 - give you some means to heal MIDFIGHT. Yeah, like it does at Archmaster level. Say a chance to regain 5 END in one battle on the book (and not just when you're down to 8, but anywhere you want); and you get an upgrade to 10 END at the start of book 9, then the last upgrade to 20 (as it's now) starting book 12. 3 - if you're using the limited version I suggested, whit Healing allowing you to heal 15, Curing would allow you to heal 35.
Does this mean we're starting to discuss modifies to the Magnakai Series? I got the impression that we were going one series at a times and that deciding on healing was needed before starting the discussion on the Magnakai.
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Post by pi4t on Aug 14, 2010 12:22:01 GMT
We are, but sometimes having an idea of how our Kai series modifications will affect our Magnakai ones can be useful. And Curing can heal out of combat damage in the same way as combat damage, using the method I suggested.
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Post by johntfs on Aug 14, 2010 12:28:20 GMT
Healing will only heal damage that is specifically taken in formal close combat. Curing heals any kind of damage.
For my part, the three disciplines I usually take in Book 6 are Weaponmastery (Bow, Sword, Warhammer), Curing and Psi-screen.
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Post by egleris on Aug 14, 2010 14:22:30 GMT
And Curing can heal out of combat damage in the same way as combat damage, using the method I suggested. You mean, every time you got any kind of damage, you roll the die and heal as rolled? ...and that would not make it impossible to die by END loss? I would need to make a test run of the series to be sure, but I'm going to be confident and bet that whit that system, death by loss of END (that is already fairly uncommon) would be about as easy as getting the string of 0 needed to kill the Chaos Master on your first playthrought. For my part, the three disciplines I usually take in Book 6 are Weaponmastery (Bow, Sword, Warhammer), Curing and Psi-screen. As I said, having curing heal mid-battle would make it good enough to justify picking it. You may like to select Curing in book 6, Johntfs, but that would mean either missing the Lore Circle of Spirit in LW 9 unless you specifically go for it... or did you fight Khima with some combination of Fire and Solaris? But that would leave you without Spirit in 11, I think... the Lorecircles need to be revisited, as they influence the discipline choice in the Magnakai series way to much. But that's for the Magnakai discussion. As it is, however, Curing is redundant in the Magnakai series, as you can always use Healing to do the same thing Curing do, and that leave you a free Discipline slot. I know it doesn't heal not-combat END loss, but not-combat END loss alone is never enough to kill you. That was the heart of my suggestion; if Healing is limited, and whit Curing empowered a bit, Curing would no longer be something you could ignore easily. And the +10 End recharge midbattle would compensate the loss of some Lore Circles bonus in LW 9 and 11. I think I've said all I could to clear why I thought my "15 limited Healing" suggestion good, and why, in relation to Curing, I find it better than the "roll 1d10" suggestion. Obviously it's up to how everybody feel about it to decide what's better. I simply feel that Healing need depowering and that, even if it's a nice option, the dice roll is not depowering enough... unless you've a limited number of uses. Very limited.
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Post by pi4t on Aug 14, 2010 14:47:03 GMT
Stop discussing the Magnakai disciplines, please, unless in relation to the Kai ones, please. We could reduce the amount healed eg 0-4. I like the healing mid combat, maybe leave the outside combat damage to Deliverance?
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Post by egleris on Aug 14, 2010 15:04:16 GMT
Well, wasn't I doing that? Curing in relation to healing.
So if I got you right, you're suggesting for Healing to heal a max of 4, so basically if you roll 5 or more, you heal 4?... That's more limited, I could live whit that. Healing remain strong, but just rolling and healing not more than 4 in every fight put it on par with Mindshield, and make bot Camouflage and Mindblast one vote better.
So, I see, you're suggesting that Curing, instead, would still roll only for battle, BUT have the full range up to 9? Whit the added midbattle healing, that would make Curing very better than Healing. I like it.
If everybody agree whit this, it would mean we've resolved the doubt for the Kai series? Empowering AK whit the animal battle bonus, MoM whit the arrow roll bonus, and depowering Healing whit the "roll only after battle and heal 4 END max"is the plan thus far.
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Post by pi4t on Aug 14, 2010 17:55:01 GMT
The comment was directed at Johntfs, who was talking about what disciplines he would take. I was just reminding people that I didn't want the Magnakai floodgates opened just yet.
Well, I actually meant that you divide the random number by 2, rounding fractions down. That way there's a 8/10 you'll heal less than 4, rather than a 4/10 one. It makes it less of a situation where you expect[/it] to heal 4, and more of one where healing all 4 is a bonus. It adds to the risk, and makes battles more exciting, since there's no guarantee you'll heal back any E you lose.
I wasn't quite suggesting that, but now you mention it, I like it too!
Yes, but there's more to do. Here's the rankings as I see them now. Any comments are, of course, welcome.
Camouflage: 4 Hunting: 6 (more powerful due to healing change) Sixth Sense: 7 Tracking: 7 Healing: 5 Weaponskill: 7 Mindshield: 6 (more powerful due to healing change) Mindblast: 7 Animal Kinship: 5 Mind Over Matter: 4
MOM could have a sort of basic Nexus, helping against damage due to extremes. Weaponskill and Mindblast can be reduced by simply making them give +1CS each, thus making them only be useful against half your enemies. Camouflage is the only one that's really out of the range we want, if we do that.
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Post by egleris on Aug 14, 2010 18:07:18 GMT
Oh, I see. But I was seeing the disciplines differently, though.
I had would list them as such:
Healing: 9 > 6 (less powerful due to Healing change) Weaponskill: 7 Mindshield: 7 Mindblast: 6 > 7 (more powerful due to Healing change) Hunting: 6 Sixth Sense: 6 Camouflage: 5 > 6 (more powerful due to Healing change) Tracking: 5 Animal Kinship: 3 > 5 (more powerful due to AK change) Mind Over Matter: 3 > 5 (more powerful due to MoM change)
You see, I had evaluated them differently from you, in my first post. I have to say, with only 1 in 5 chance of healing 4 END, Healing is officially on par with the others.
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Post by pi4t on Aug 14, 2010 21:18:56 GMT
Of course, there's a 1 in 5 chance of healing 3E, 1 in 5 of healing 2E, and 1 in 5 of healing 1E.
Why's camouflage more powerful due to healing? And why boost Mindblast and not Weaponskill or Mindshield? Why didn't you increase Hunting?
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Post by egleris on Aug 15, 2010 2:02:22 GMT
Because both Camouflage and Mindblast have the same purpouse of Healing: sparing END from the lesser fights. With Healing now unable to spare all of your END on its own, their effect automatically gain importance. Hunting is not influenced by the strenght of healing, if we agree that Healing doesn't heal Meal damage, so it stand as it is.
Weaponskill didn't gain because it remain equally effective; it's not making you lose less than before. I know that it seems it should grow like Mindblast, but the fact is, Mindblast you only use in the lesser fights, and so having Healing powerful made it less important as Healing would heal those wounds. Weaponskill is to survive the thougher fiths, as is Mindshield; Healing purpose I see as different.
We're trying to make all the disciplines of about the same importance while choosing; having Healing less powerful make it more palatable to take Mindblast or Camouflage, as they are the other two disciplines that accomplish the same results. Camouflage and Mindblast are direct opponent of healing, while Mindshield and Weaponskill are not direct opponents of Healing, so they does not gain.
This, at least, is how I thought it. If one discipline push you into discarding the other, that make them opponent for that spot in your character sheet. The point was to make them all equally attractive, and I think this new modifies do it.
Also, I knew there was also a 1 in 5 chance of every other result! That's what make it fair.
To clarify:
Boss fights: Weaponskill, Mindshield Correct Path: Tracking, Sixth Sense Lesser fights: Healing, Mindblast, Camouflage, Animal Kinship Random Rolls: Hunting, Mind over Matter
this is my view of how the disciplines compete with each other (for AK and MoM, this is after the modifies. Before the modifies, they would be in a separate category for them only, named "Situational Use")
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Post by pi4t on Aug 15, 2010 17:45:08 GMT
Good, just making sure you hadn't misinterpreted! Fair points, and I reckon the Kai series is nearly finished, though I think that since Camouflage is rarely useful, it could still do with a slight boost. Perhaps 'if you aren't surprised by your enemy you can ambush/sneak up on them, meaning only you deal damage in the first combat round'?
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Post by egleris on Aug 15, 2010 19:21:14 GMT
That's an interesting point, but I think it's a bit too powerful, and it would be difficult to apply. I mean, how exactly is one to determine if it's to be used? The only easy way to implement such a rule would be to take no damage in the first round unless the text tell you otherwise, but that almost 90% of all the battles.
I think this is not a bad idea, and I would use it for Invisibility, not for Camouflage. Yes, Camouflage is a low-use discipline, but so are also AK and MoM, even after the modifies; and it is still something you would prefer to, say Tracking or Sixth Sense, if you roll a low starting END.
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Post by pi4t on Aug 16, 2010 12:23:04 GMT
OK, on to the Magnakai Disciplines!
My first suggestion for the rankings (note that this takes account of neither lore circles, nor upgraded disciplines).
Weaponmastery=8* Animal Control=2 Curing (with method decided upon)=7 Invisibility=6 Huntmastery=7 Pathsmanship=6 Psi-surge**=6 Psi-screen=5 Nexus=7 Divination=7
*remember the reduction of Weaponskill to 1CS, and if you didn't get a sword in Weaponskill, you'll want this fairly soon. Also, once you have it you can gain an extra weapon every book, so you want it early on due to this too.
**Do we want to keep Mindblast a 1, or increase it to 2 (like the GM discipline increases it to 4)?
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