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Post by lythandra on Sept 13, 2014 14:38:20 GMT
Hi. I've been returning to Magnamund recently (used to play gamebooks as a child, including some disparate Lone Wolf books), playing the whole series from book 1 using Seventh Sense/By-the-Book rules.
But now, I find myself faced with a conundrum at the beginning of the Grand Master series: rolling new stats or not.
The choices before me are:
1. Keeping old stats and benefitting from Magnakai skills.
2. Rolling new stats, but giving up on Magnakai skills.
Stats-wise, it's pretty close (equipment is irrelevant - I get to keep the same items either way):
"Old" CS: 10+x+5 (Lore-circles)+3 (mindblast)+4 (Weaponmastery)=22+x with the option of +3 for 1 HP/turn (Psy-Surge)
"New" CS: 25+x
Advantage of +3 with the new stats, though if I choose Grand Weaponmastery and Kay-Surge as initial skills, that advantage rises to +10, as the Magnakai bonuses don't stack with the GM bonuses.
"Old" EN: 20+y+11 (Lore-circles)=31+y
"New" EN: 30+y
Advantage of +1 for the old stats.
I'd rolled x=9, y=7 back in Flight from the Dark, so I doubt the new rolls would be as good.
The question is, are Magnakai (or even Kai) skills beneficial in the GM series?
Curing, of course, would allow +1 HP/non-combat section without picking Deliverance.
Huntsmastery would allow not needing meals (in most circumstances) without picking Grand Huntsmastery.
But what about the others? Are there specific sections where the other Magnakai skills would be useful in the GM series?
And, if so, is it worth giving up on 3* CS, rising to 10* CS eventually (though with +1* EN) for those?
I remember Ixiataaga was quite hard, so I'm not sure passing up on a whole 10 CS is warranted.
*assuming the same rolls.
Anyway, I can't decide. Thoughts?
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Post by Texan Kai on Sept 15, 2014 23:31:21 GMT
Yes, the Kai and Magnakai skills are beneficial in the GM series if you completed the Kai and Magnakai books. Check the relevant entries here for some helpful links from the Lone Wolf Club Newsletter. Hope that helps you! |
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Post by UrQuan on Sept 16, 2014 0:38:33 GMT
The non-combat Kai and Magnakai skills have close to zero use in GM (or even negative effects should you choose to use them in lieu of GM skills). It is not worth giving up any amount of CS, for almost any reason. However, I personally consider re-rolling stats while keeping equipment/legacy bonuses very gamey, even though the Readers Handbook mentions that option. If you know what you're doing, with a 19 CS legacy character you can easily achieve 100% win rates in every mandatory fight along the way. Let alone with 10+ more CS out of nowhere. Even with a blind play-through you would now struggle to find a fight below 100% win rate. If you have all or most CS-boosting items, you are strong enough for Ixia and worse, regardless. Doesn't make sense to get "the best of both worlds", by re-rolling while also keeping equipment. And yeah, stuff like the +1 EP bonus is also meant only for legacy characters. If you read the Deliverance description in GM, you see that there is no mention of it. In fact, there is no mention of it anywhere in GM: www.projectaon.org/en/ReadersHandbook/NewsletterExcerpts#lwcn28 |
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Post by darkthief on Nov 18, 2014 21:06:52 GMT
Yes they are worth carrying over...in fact the GM books still mention them from time to time (eg. enemies that are immune to Mindblast but not Psi-surge or Kai-surge). I've completed 13 books so far (playing for first time since I was a kid) and found myself using the +6/-1 from Psi-surge quite a bit because of the difficulty hike from the pre-GM books. (though I am making it a lot harder by applying the max-10-EP-from-Curing-per-book rule to all of them)
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Post by darkthief on Nov 28, 2014 2:20:04 GMT
I've analysed this a bit more...as I'm about to start the New Order series, and I'm currently looking at how best to roll my character. And basically there's some things that don't make sense:
If the NOGM character started out at the bottom and learned Kai->Magnakai-> GM skills like LW did, he would get 10/20 (base stats), +5/+11 (lore circles) and +4/+0 (Weaponmastery at highest rank) which leaves him at 19/31.
If the NOGM character rolls anew like the book says, he gets 25/30 which doesn't quite line up (although you could try to explain it by claiming that he got a good CS roll and a bad EP roll). He could then get a further +5/+0 from Grand Weaponmastery, which definitely doesn't make sense when he's already got Weaponmastery. (in short he ends up a lot better than LW was at this stage, despite not having the SS or any special items)
So what I'm gonna do is play a "legacy-style" character with 19/25 stats and all the Magnakai bonuses (lore circles, optional Psi-surge, weaker form of Deliverance etc.) which gives me 34/36 before psychic attacks. (inc the extra +1/+0 from Grand Weaponmastery, as I'm still gonna take it because any CS bonus is worth it)
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Post by Rusty Radiator on Feb 9, 2015 0:13:39 GMT
The non-combat Kai and Magnakai skills have close to zero use in GM (or even negative effects should you choose to use them in lieu of GM skills). It is not worth giving up any amount of CS, for almost any reason. However, I personally consider re-rolling stats while keeping equipment/legacy bonuses very gamey, even though the Readers Handbook mentions that option. If you know what you're doing, with a 19 CS legacy character you can easily achieve 100% win rates in every mandatory fight along the way. Let alone with 10+ more CS out of nowhere. Even with a blind play-through you would now struggle to find a fight below 100% win rate. If you have all or most CS-boosting items, you are strong enough for Ixia and worse, regardless. Doesn't make sense to get "the best of both worlds", by re-rolling while also keeping equipment. And yeah, stuff like the +1 EP bonus is also meant only for legacy characters. If you read the Deliverance description in GM, you see that there is no mention of it. In fact, there is no mention of it anywhere in GM: www.projectaon.org/en/ReadersHandbook/NewsletterExcerpts#lwcn28Playing 'legacy' style does not give you a cat's chance in hell against challenges such as the last few fights in 17. It was hard enough playing it with the 10 cs boost, even with a highish cs roll. Remember, you can only carry forward a very limited selection of cs boosting equipment giving you around 32 base plus 4 for completions plus maybe 10 for ss and bracers (46) plus 13 for ks and gws (assuming you pick them both- it's meant to be a choice!). This leaves you with far from '100%' victory chances against the 4 tough fights in rapid succession with extra damage thrown in in between. It was book 17 that convinced me I was right to reroll stats, as it was the only way you stood a chance of getting through in 3 or 4 play through rather than 19 or 20..... Mind you, I don't like drinking more than 1 laumspur after a fight for rp reasons..... I do think the blurb about the considerable changes to mind and body justify the big leap in cs on an rp level. |
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Post by UrQuan on Nov 3, 2015 5:30:46 GMT
The non-combat Kai and Magnakai skills have close to zero use in GM (or even negative effects should you choose to use them in lieu of GM skills). It is not worth giving up any amount of CS, for almost any reason. However, I personally consider re-rolling stats while keeping equipment/legacy bonuses very gamey, even though the Readers Handbook mentions that option. If you know what you're doing, with a 19 CS legacy character you can easily achieve 100% win rates in every mandatory fight along the way. Let alone with 10+ more CS out of nowhere. Even with a blind play-through you would now struggle to find a fight below 100% win rate. If you have all or most CS-boosting items, you are strong enough for Ixia and worse, regardless. Doesn't make sense to get "the best of both worlds", by re-rolling while also keeping equipment. And yeah, stuff like the +1 EP bonus is also meant only for legacy characters. If you read the Deliverance description in GM, you see that there is no mention of it. In fact, there is no mention of it anywhere in GM: www.projectaon.org/en/ReadersHandbook/NewsletterExcerpts#lwcn28Playing 'legacy' style does not give you a cat's chance in hell against challenges such as the last few fights in 17. It was hard enough playing it with the 10 cs boost, even with a highish cs roll. Remember, you can only carry forward a very limited selection of cs boosting equipment giving you around 32 base plus 4 for completions plus maybe 10 for ss and bracers (46) plus 13 for ks and gws (assuming you pick them both- it's meant to be a choice!). This leaves you with far from '100%' victory chances against the 4 tough fights in rapid succession with extra damage thrown in in between. It was book 17 that convinced me I was right to reroll stats, as it was the only way you stood a chance of getting through in 3 or 4 play through rather than 19 or 20..... Mind you, I don't like drinking more than 1 laumspur after a fight for rp reasons..... I do think the blurb about the considerable changes to mind and body justify the big leap in cs on an rp level. Ancient thread but here we go... And by the way, I've done 1-17 on a legacy character without dying, let alone being able to beat the book on its own. With 19 CS +5 Grand Weaponmastery +2 Silver Helmet +2 Silver Bracers (+3 Kagonite Chainmail) +5 Lore-circles +4 GM Advancement +2 Alether (at least) +8 Sommerswerd +8 Kai-surge That's 58. With 29 EP +1 Silver Bracers +11 Lore-circles +8 GM Advancement That's 49. Let's do the simulation for the Deathlord fight: === Cumulative ===
success: 99.9998515%
average LW EP: 36.053316686
failure: 0.0001485%
average E EP: -3
Without the Kagonite Chainmail: === Cumulative ===
success: 97.68748982%
average LW EP: 27.070294218
failure: 2.31251018%
average E EP: 5.6524531364Not to mention, if you have the Kagonite Chainmail you will have Adgana too, which makes it even more lopsided, even without good stats. Also, in By-The-Book you don't need the +4 Alether for the Chaos-master so you might as well use it here. With Deliverance and legacy Curing, then even without healing items, just beating the book should really not be a problem. I rest my case. |
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Post by Wise Eagle on Nov 3, 2015 18:03:38 GMT
With max cs and max ep, and all items giving combat bonus the books doesn't give much challenge combat wise, and all of the others books the same applies. There is quite a few mandatory combats on the way in 17 but character is likely to survive them if their stats are maxed.
Maxing stats to make combat an afterthought is a bad idea.
The biggest risks with book 17 then is the risk of death by random number in the book. i.e. leaving the crystal spire and this risk it shares with many other books.
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Post by UrQuan on Nov 3, 2015 20:44:47 GMT
With max cs and max ep, and all items giving combat bonus the books doesn't give much challenge combat wise, and all of the others books the same applies. There is quite a few mandatory combats on the way in 17 but character is likely to survive them if their stats are maxed. Maxing stats to make combat an afterthought is a bad idea. The biggest risks with book 17 then is the risk of death by random number in the book. i.e. leaving the crystal spire and this risk it shares with many other books. Yes, and that was exactly my point (from a year ago), that a good legacy character makes all mandatory combats trivial, whereas you originally said it "doesn't give a cat's chance". My 1-17 No Deaths run is with only 15 CS 20 EP by the way, where still, as you said, the random rolls are the biggest issue. They really start to add up. And if you play normally, you can conveniently restart or kill yourself off in book 12 until you get the Kagonite Chainmail and the Adgana, which again makes all mandatory combats throughout Grandmaster easy enough, even with lower stats. |
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Post by Rusty Radiator on Nov 9, 2015 1:55:00 GMT
You are assuming perfect stats roll AND all possible equipment for the Deathlord 99% scenario. You are also assuming full Endurance, which is highly unlikely given the 3 tough fights previously, not to mention the unforgiving nature of the book throughout.
Repeating books over and over till you get every piece of stat boosting equipment does not make for an immersive rp experience, IMO. Surely it should be possible to go through the series without being forced to collect a mandatory set of artifacts and without rolling 9 on your CS score?
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Post by UrQuan on Nov 9, 2015 12:25:08 GMT
You are assuming perfect stats roll AND all possible equipment for the Deathlord 99% scenario. You are also assuming full Endurance, which is highly unlikely given the 3 tough fights previously, not to mention the unforgiving nature of the book throughout. Repeating books over and over till you get every piece of stat boosting equipment does not make for an immersive rp experience, IMO. Surely it should be possible to go through the series without being forced to collect a mandatory set of artifacts and without rolling 9 on your CS score? If you have Adgana the Deathlord fight is at a 99% win rate with as low as 13 CS. Of course you will get grinded down through the book but with enough healing items you will consistently get there with max EP and even with the burst heal unused. I do agree that the whole "rolling for stats" system is fundamentally broken. There is no way to balance the game or any fights with that kind of enormous variance. Although, like I said, you can easily do it with as low as 13 CS. And of course the book is completely impossible as a "fresh start", despite what the Grand Master's Wisdom says. |
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Post by Rusty Radiator on Nov 19, 2015 0:00:53 GMT
The Kagonite chainmail is particularly tough to get, but all of the stat boosting stuff can be missed with certain skill selections. Having Max equipment is surely a precondition of some slack on CS. Also, I haven't crunched the numbers, but are you assuming a stack with adgana AND alether?
As for healing items.... I always interpreted the laumspur that you could have ONE only straight after a combat. This seems intuitive in a RP perspective. This makes full endurance very tough by Deathlord.
You may think I'm unnecessarily restrictive in these regards, but then I'm looser about straight CS gain. To me it's a question of going through with more potential variation for a more satisfying experience. It should not always be necessary to have a helmeted kagonite Lonewolf, who keeps sitting down to eat his own body weight in herbs & narcotics.
Let's help kick drugs out of Gamebooks!
;D
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Post by UrQuan on Nov 19, 2015 1:31:57 GMT
The Kagonite chainmail is particularly tough to get, but all of the stat boosting stuff can be missed with certain skill selections. Well, the Silver Helmet doesn't need any skills and the stuff in book 12 only needs Curing, where you only have one skill missing anyway, and the Kagonite Chainmail and Adgana are at 33% (RNT odds) regardless of your skills. No. I wasn't assuming unused burst heal either. |
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Post by Wise Eagle on Nov 19, 2015 20:32:42 GMT
If the NOGM character started out at the bottom and learned Kai->Magnakai-> GM skills like LW did, he would get 10/20 (base stats), +5/+11 (lore circles) and +4/+0 (Weaponmastery at highest rank) which leaves him at 19/31. If the NOGM character rolls anew like the book says, he gets 25/30 which doesn't quite line up (although you could try to explain it by claiming that he got a good CS roll and a bad EP roll). He could then get a further +5/+0 from Grand Weaponmastery, which definitely doesn't make sense when he's already got Weaponmastery. (in short he ends up a lot better than LW was at this stage, despite not having the SS or any special items) For a NOGM, you should do as the books tell you and carry over nothing at all unless the books tell you to, curing is for instance good to restore 10 ep during the adventure. They are fairly well balanced, and you can easily afford to take grand weaponmastery and kai surge, and completion chance with both and start with cs 30 and ep 35 (5 rolls on the RNT) is a 50% chance to survive (with more or less random other skills). For good chances to win in gm series, you probably need 2 out of 3 of weaponmastery, deliverance and kai surge, starting with top scores will also do it, but you risk getting overpowered after a few adventures then. |
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