Post by GhostofLandar on Jun 2, 2015 5:55:52 GMT
Undoubtedly, like at least some of you, I watch Game of Thrones (never read the books) and have enjoyed a different take on the fantasy genre, one that is often missing from popular media portrayals, while not depriving us of at least some heroes and true villains. But one thing that nags at me is that I feel like I've seen this before. I should preface my remarks by saying I think Joe Dever created the most compelling, awe-inspiring and terrifying fantasy universe. Although the books were intended for young adults, scenes like last night's slaughter at Hardhome often occurred in Lone Wolf, and when I watched that entire scene unfold, I felt transported, not to Westeros or whatever that planet is called but to Magnamund. Often times I felt like Martin at least read the books or skimmed them for ideas. This isn't to accuse him of "stealing" as he's obviously poured thousands of hours into his own creation, but I think some resemblances are perhaps a bit too strong, even if they are tweaked. As I watched the show last night, it reminded me of what could have been for Magnamund and Lone Wolf, could you imagine the Darklands armies descending upon the monastery or upon Talestria? I don't think we could have taken Lone Wolf all the way through book 20, but hell, maybe based on several seasons of Got, we could have something close, even in animated form? People get amped over the Battle of Blackwater, can you imagine the naval battle against Death Hulks, the landing at Holmgard and the raising of the siege? (or the end of the Chasm of Doom, let alone many of the other books)
Certainly, not enough pages were devoted to storytelling on a pure basis, but as we see from video games developed from scratch, that has no bearing on the creation of an interesting and immersive universe, and most of these fictional universes are not nearly as complex or deep as Dever has made Magnamund, Aon and the Planes of Existence.
Before I continue, I should confess that maybe some aspects of GoT/SoFaI is actually developed from Dungeons and Dragons components that predate Joe's creations. That said, let me pose to you a few similarities and assess how near I am to the mark, if at all.
1. The "adult" aspect of the series seems less LotR and more what Dever constantly hammered at in Lone Wolf. That the characters that you meet and that die are real, that the consequences of failure are not merely who sits on the throne over two-dimensional beings but real-life slaughters and genocides (like last night.) Again, I don't claim Dever discovered this approach but if you look at when Martin first began writing (or began publishing, it's hard to say what developed between pen to paper and publication) it corresponds to the final climax of Dever's world (and his expansion of it in the Grand Master/New Order books.)
Martin began writing this in 1991, but publishing was in 1996.
2. The Walkers. Does anyone get a sort of combined Ice Demons and Shianti vibe from them? Hey, maybe Ice Demons were common in D&D in the 80s but I know that Ice Demons coming from the North (and eventually they do in Storms of Chai) is a real thing. Everything from stealthy sort of crystal armor and swords smacks of Ikaya and the culture of the Shianti or Shianti-worshipping peoples of the North. Sure, their eyes are blue instead of mirrored, but they are tall, otherwise immortal (t would seem) and are otheworldly, with white hair (yes, I know they have ebony skin instead.)
3. The heavy use of wolves as a symbol. Oh, I don't mean to say wolves and making them "good" can't be a flipping of LotR, which itself seems the basis for Doomwolves, but that the association of the Wolf with the North, and with the "guardian" realm against the TRUE evil seems associated with Lone Wolf himself, the symbol of Freelands resistance to the Darklords? If the Wolf had even been associated with the Lannisters or some other House, I could have dismissed it, but for it to be associated with the family who seem to be the eventual (maybe) saviors of the world seems interesting to me, as a parallel.
4. The Wall. Did anyone get a sense of the Durncrag mountains and the watch maintained by Kai and Sommlending rangers on the Darklands and how long the threat had laid dormant before arising again in a fury? Not only that but the wall is EXTREMELY tall and INFUSED WITH MAGIC, isn't that both Toran and Holmgard? And watching the show, the descent from the wall seemed STRAIGHT out of John Grant's long and difficult descent of Lone Wolf (remember that?) WHen I saw that, I swore that someone associated with teh show had read that book and remembered the passage describing the agonizing journey down a thousand foot ice cliff.
5. Necromancy/Ixia. Again, necromancy isn't a new idea, I'm not claiming Martin stole it from Dever. But doesn't the constant raising of fresh battle dead and the deathly cold that the Walkers bring remind anyone of the Cabalah and raising of the dead and inhabiting a frigid realm of undeath? Did Dever borrow this idea from anyone because the idea of a frozen realm of undeath ruled by an ancient demon-King seems pretty familiar to me..
6. The Doom of Valyria. Sure, I could look to Tolkien's treatment of Numenor here and I wouldn't disagree entirely. But then again, there is a a part of me that thinks of the Doomlands of Naaros or the end that came for Taklakot, the "just desserts" for an arrogant and ambitious empire. it's also in the fact that, unlike Atlantis or Numenor, the cursed land still lives, just like the Maakengorge or Naaros.
7. The Long Night. Isn't the Age of Eternal Night straight out of Magnamund's History? Or maybe the Age of the Black Moon? Again, maybe this is that part from LotR but the overall rule of Evil in the land seems related to this concept, which predates Martin's creation.
8. The Migration of Men into the world. Isn't it odd that men come from either the Void or from some other side of the world archipelago in both LW and Westeros?
9. The Iron Isles. Did anyone (who had never read the books) IMMEDIATELY think of the Kirlundin isles when they encountered these people?
10. Killings of the First Races. Anyone think of the Drodarin peoples and their fates? Is it only coincidence, is it an expansion on Tolkien? Just curious.
11. Undead Army. Vashna?
12. Recurring Prophecy. And the prophecy of the Koura-tas-kai who will save the world from darkness at different times but in similar ways across a great ocean of time? (Azor Ahai, am I to believe these are all coincidence?) It's one thing for there to be a prophecy, another for it to be based on an event that happened LINKED with the future as it was for Sun Eagle and Lone Wolf?
I might be missing more but these are what I came up with sitting here. Upon reflection, I think #12 is worth some consideration and there are things I have probably forgotten from the show or books that are familiar to some of you that may (or may not) be related to LW/Dever's creation.
For some reason, be it GoT or something else, I recall the Wasteland of Lara battle scene and the Cyrill death battle at the Graveyard in Kingdom of Terrors actually coming back to me while watching but someone correct me on that.
Certainly, not enough pages were devoted to storytelling on a pure basis, but as we see from video games developed from scratch, that has no bearing on the creation of an interesting and immersive universe, and most of these fictional universes are not nearly as complex or deep as Dever has made Magnamund, Aon and the Planes of Existence.
Before I continue, I should confess that maybe some aspects of GoT/SoFaI is actually developed from Dungeons and Dragons components that predate Joe's creations. That said, let me pose to you a few similarities and assess how near I am to the mark, if at all.
1. The "adult" aspect of the series seems less LotR and more what Dever constantly hammered at in Lone Wolf. That the characters that you meet and that die are real, that the consequences of failure are not merely who sits on the throne over two-dimensional beings but real-life slaughters and genocides (like last night.) Again, I don't claim Dever discovered this approach but if you look at when Martin first began writing (or began publishing, it's hard to say what developed between pen to paper and publication) it corresponds to the final climax of Dever's world (and his expansion of it in the Grand Master/New Order books.)
Martin began writing this in 1991, but publishing was in 1996.
2. The Walkers. Does anyone get a sort of combined Ice Demons and Shianti vibe from them? Hey, maybe Ice Demons were common in D&D in the 80s but I know that Ice Demons coming from the North (and eventually they do in Storms of Chai) is a real thing. Everything from stealthy sort of crystal armor and swords smacks of Ikaya and the culture of the Shianti or Shianti-worshipping peoples of the North. Sure, their eyes are blue instead of mirrored, but they are tall, otherwise immortal (t would seem) and are otheworldly, with white hair (yes, I know they have ebony skin instead.)
3. The heavy use of wolves as a symbol. Oh, I don't mean to say wolves and making them "good" can't be a flipping of LotR, which itself seems the basis for Doomwolves, but that the association of the Wolf with the North, and with the "guardian" realm against the TRUE evil seems associated with Lone Wolf himself, the symbol of Freelands resistance to the Darklords? If the Wolf had even been associated with the Lannisters or some other House, I could have dismissed it, but for it to be associated with the family who seem to be the eventual (maybe) saviors of the world seems interesting to me, as a parallel.
4. The Wall. Did anyone get a sense of the Durncrag mountains and the watch maintained by Kai and Sommlending rangers on the Darklands and how long the threat had laid dormant before arising again in a fury? Not only that but the wall is EXTREMELY tall and INFUSED WITH MAGIC, isn't that both Toran and Holmgard? And watching the show, the descent from the wall seemed STRAIGHT out of John Grant's long and difficult descent of Lone Wolf (remember that?) WHen I saw that, I swore that someone associated with teh show had read that book and remembered the passage describing the agonizing journey down a thousand foot ice cliff.
5. Necromancy/Ixia. Again, necromancy isn't a new idea, I'm not claiming Martin stole it from Dever. But doesn't the constant raising of fresh battle dead and the deathly cold that the Walkers bring remind anyone of the Cabalah and raising of the dead and inhabiting a frigid realm of undeath? Did Dever borrow this idea from anyone because the idea of a frozen realm of undeath ruled by an ancient demon-King seems pretty familiar to me..
6. The Doom of Valyria. Sure, I could look to Tolkien's treatment of Numenor here and I wouldn't disagree entirely. But then again, there is a a part of me that thinks of the Doomlands of Naaros or the end that came for Taklakot, the "just desserts" for an arrogant and ambitious empire. it's also in the fact that, unlike Atlantis or Numenor, the cursed land still lives, just like the Maakengorge or Naaros.
7. The Long Night. Isn't the Age of Eternal Night straight out of Magnamund's History? Or maybe the Age of the Black Moon? Again, maybe this is that part from LotR but the overall rule of Evil in the land seems related to this concept, which predates Martin's creation.
8. The Migration of Men into the world. Isn't it odd that men come from either the Void or from some other side of the world archipelago in both LW and Westeros?
9. The Iron Isles. Did anyone (who had never read the books) IMMEDIATELY think of the Kirlundin isles when they encountered these people?
10. Killings of the First Races. Anyone think of the Drodarin peoples and their fates? Is it only coincidence, is it an expansion on Tolkien? Just curious.
11. Undead Army. Vashna?
12. Recurring Prophecy. And the prophecy of the Koura-tas-kai who will save the world from darkness at different times but in similar ways across a great ocean of time? (Azor Ahai, am I to believe these are all coincidence?) It's one thing for there to be a prophecy, another for it to be based on an event that happened LINKED with the future as it was for Sun Eagle and Lone Wolf?
I might be missing more but these are what I came up with sitting here. Upon reflection, I think #12 is worth some consideration and there are things I have probably forgotten from the show or books that are familiar to some of you that may (or may not) be related to LW/Dever's creation.
For some reason, be it GoT or something else, I recall the Wasteland of Lara battle scene and the Cyrill death battle at the Graveyard in Kingdom of Terrors actually coming back to me while watching but someone correct me on that.