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Post by GhostofLandar on Oct 24, 2019 16:21:50 GMT
I take issue with this concept in fantasy literature- the Evil Race. The idea that an entire people are uniformly evil and worthy of extinction has led to some of the most horrific acts of ethnic cleansing in the real world. In fantasy, the genesis of the races are sometimes different. it's clear from the lore, supplements, etc. that the Drakkarim are a race created in mockery of human beings and have already put other worlds to the sword (they're not from Magnamund, nor direct from Plane of Darkness.) Drakkarim can mix with human beings and those so produced can exercise more will. Asking if the Drakkarim can be saved is like asking if the Darklords themselves can be saved. They cannot. At best, you'd have a few 'mutated' individuals who could be capable of good or honor, but you wouldn't have anything resembling a redemption arc for the race. It really doesn't matter what the real world does because in fantasy the entire point is that there are good or evil or simply forces of nature for whom there can be no persuasion or change. There are wars in which people have found themselves put to the sword and found very little sympathy. They would then understand their conquerors/murderers as little different than Drakkarim, which is what the "evil race" aspect gets into. Tolkien allowed for human races to have choice. But because Evil itself cannot bring into being anything with true ability to understand good or evil and choose, those races created directly by Naar (in our case) can only act according to his will, as they are a corruption and perversion of life (though he has more ability to "create" than Sauron or Melkor in Tolkien's setting.)
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Post by Rusty Radiator on Nov 5, 2019 23:57:02 GMT
Evil itself cannot bring into being anything with true ability to understand good or evil and choose, those races created directly by Naar (in our case) can only act according to his will, as they are a corruption and perversion of life (though he has more ability to "create" than Sauron or Melkor in Tolkien's setting.) Why can the Gods of Good create beings possessed of Agency and capable of choice, yet a God of Evil cannot? Seems uneven. I take issue with this concept in fantasy literature- the Evil Race. The idea that an entire people are uniformly evil and worthy of extinction has led to some of the most horrific acts of ethnic cleansing in the real world. It really doesn't matter what the real world does because in fantasy the entire point is that there are good or evil or simply forces of nature for whom there can be no persuasion or change. There are wars in which people have found themselves put to the sword and found very little sympathy. They would then understand their conquerors/murderers as little different than Drakkarim, which is what the "evil race" aspect gets into. Except that that is ONLY the understanding of the conquered people, in reality the people that conquered them were capable of compassion, they just weren't showing it at that time.
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Post by Black Cat on Nov 6, 2019 3:50:01 GMT
Why can the Gods of Good create beings possessed of Agency and capable of choice, yet a God of Evil cannot? Seems uneven. I don't think it's a question of can or can't: Evil prefers to have control, to have power over someone or something. Freewill is not something Evil values while Good prefers all the notions related to the liberty of choice and action. Naar must have the power of creating beings capable of freewill, it's just that it's not something that serves him and what he values.
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Post by GhostofLandar on Nov 15, 2019 17:35:38 GMT
Agreed with Black Cat. That's sort of the theme with Naar. I dismiss most of the Legends novels but there are parts that seem to correspond with what Joe was trying to convey. I remember that part at the core of the Darklords where Naar's "soul-stuff" was present. Yes, they were beings with agency, and you see that in their different personalities, preferences, etc. but they cannot choose to be good because Naar either won't or cannot make them that way. Perhaps he once knew how. My own pet theory is that, as the Companion once stated, the Gods were formless and timeless but were at war with each other. By coming together to make Aon, they were both changed by the possibilities of corporeal existence. Maybe at the very beginning Naar was more "antithesis" but not "EVIL" but as he became the opposite of Kai and Naar, his own nature began to correspond with its physical expressions. Although I do wonder, did Daziarn exist before Aon? My thought was Aon was the first mortal plane, but beings in Daziarn still have form.
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Post by heroaltair2 on Nov 16, 2019 19:13:23 GMT
Agreed with Black Cat. That's sort of the theme with Naar. I dismiss most of the Legends novels but there are parts that seem to correspond with what Joe was trying to convey. I remember that part at the core of the Darklords where Naar's "soul-stuff" was present. Yes, they were beings with agency, and you see that in their different personalities, preferences, etc. but they cannot choose to be good because Naar either won't or cannot make them that way. Perhaps he once knew how. My own pet theory is that, as the Companion once stated, the Gods were formless and timeless but were at war with each other. By coming together to make Aon, they were both changed by the possibilities of corporeal existence. Maybe at the very beginning Naar was more "antithesis" but not "EVIL" but as he became the opposite of Kai and Naar, his own nature began to correspond with its physical expressions. Although I do wonder, did Daziarn exist before Aon? My thought was Aon was the first mortal plane, but beings in Daziarn still have form. According with LW Wiki Daziarn and Aon were created simultaneosly
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Post by GhostofLandar on Mar 4, 2020 20:10:36 GMT
Agreed with Black Cat. That's sort of the theme with Naar. I dismiss most of the Legends novels but there are parts that seem to correspond with what Joe was trying to convey. I remember that part at the core of the Darklords where Naar's "soul-stuff" was present. Yes, they were beings with agency, and you see that in their different personalities, preferences, etc. but they cannot choose to be good because Naar either won't or cannot make them that way. Perhaps he once knew how. My own pet theory is that, as the Companion once stated, the Gods were formless and timeless but were at war with each other. By coming together to make Aon, they were both changed by the possibilities of corporeal existence. Maybe at the very beginning Naar was more "antithesis" but not "EVIL" but as he became the opposite of Kai and Naar, his own nature began to correspond with its physical expressions. Although I do wonder, did Daziarn exist before Aon? My thought was Aon was the first mortal plane, but beings in Daziarn still have form. According with LW Wiki Daziarn and Aon were created simultaneosly Ah, interesting. Makes a sort of sense, if Aon is the material plane that the semi-material/astral plane of the Daziarn instantiates at the same time. Also would make sense why it is part of the great struggle and not entirely distinct.
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