Shadow Reavers and Mindblast (book 11)

[ajvn]

Dear Kai colleagues,

hereby I would like to ask you regarding the mental fight with Shadow Reavers in book 11 (270).

What is your position regarding the Mindblast? Are they immune to it or not? Many thanks for your

opinions.

[kurz81]

www.projectaon.org/en/xhtml/lw/11tpot/sect270.htm
It is not mentioned that the enemies are immune to mindblast.
So it is safe to assume that they are vulnerable to it.

[bravestar]

On the other hand, the only reason you enter into psychic combat with the Shadow Reavers in that context is Because you have Psi-Surge. If you don't, then you fight the combat normally against Corporeal Shadow Reavers (at a CS of 34, rather than 25 for the Psi-Surge psychic duel at CS 25).

Furthermore, Mindblast is a weaker form of Psi-Surge as per the rules:

This psychic skill enables a Kai Master to attack an enemy using the force of his mind. It can be used as well as normal combat weapons and adds 4 extra points to your COMBAT SKILL.

It is a powerful Discipline, but it is also a costly one. For every round of combat in which you use Psi-surge, you must deduct 2 ENDURANCE points. A weaker form of Psi-surge called Mindblast can be used against an enemy without losing any ENDURANCE points, but it will add only 2 extra points to your COMBAT SKILL. (Psi-surge and Mindblast cannot be used simultaneously.) Psi-surge cannot be used if your ENDURANCE falls to 6 points or below, and not all of the creatures encountered on your adventure will be affected by it; you will be told if a creature is immune.

If you choose this skill, write ‘Psi-surge: +4 COMBAT SKILL points but −2 ENDURANCE points per round’ and ‘Mindblast: +2 COMBAT SKILL points’ on your Action Chart.

Contextually it doesn't seem like this is optional; if you have Psi-Surge you would fight the easier (psychic) duel and if you didn't, you'd be fighting them corporeally (at the higher CS). So if you MUST have the stronger version to engage in the psychic duel to begin with, the weaker one by definition couldn't be used.

Nevermind that to have mindblast requires either having Psi-Surge to begin with or carrying it over from Books 1-5 as a loyalty bonus. Given that many of the 'loyalty bonuses' in the earlier books weren't explicitly laid out in detail this probably is another of those oversights by omission and ones that didn't get covered in the books.

I'm not saying that you couldn't make a case for it by a strict 'by the book rules and by the book rules alone' definition of things - but it would seem to be one of those vaguely rules-lawyerish type of interpretations that would ignore the spirit of the rule (it would require somehow assuming that the Kai Discipline 'mindblast' is entirely different than the MagnaKai discipline Psi-Surge, rather than an evolution. Which doesn't seem to be the case. When you look at Healing vs Curing or Weaponskill vs Weaponmastery they don't stack, nor can you gain a separate 'mindblast' bonus on top of the mindblast bonus you'd get for Psi-Surge as per the rules above unless you assumed Kai discipline bonuses for mindblast and Psi-Surge existed independently of each other.)

Edit:  We have another similar situation in Book 8 which also required Psi-Surge to engage in psychic combat and it's actually handled in a very different way.  Either psychic combat is highly contextual (which is true of alot of mindforce-involved situations, as not all foes are corporeal or even have nervous systems to be affected) seems to be one of those things you'd have to research and homebrew to get a consensus on.   Its interesting that by the time this combat occurs you also could have the Grey Crystal ring but get no bonuses (nor do they handle the CS bonuses in the same way that they do in Book 11, like the Silver Helmet one) 

Ultimately its another 'open to interpretation' rules situation and you can ultimately play the book however you want.   If you really need/want that mindblast bonus there's a way to rationalze it and it only affects your enjoyment or lack thereof. Do what you want.

[ajvn]

Thank you for your profound analysis. This is really an ambiguous place. There is another problem connected to it. What if I have the Psi-Surge but cannot use it due to low Endurance? Can I still enter the psychic combat? Or what happens if I fall under 6 points during the combat itself? One could also raise the question if we are supposed to pay 2 Endurance points per round in this combat or not.

[Ofecks]

You can't use MB on the reavers because as bravestar said, you can't even get there without Psi-surge.

I believe it's reasonable to assume, in this case, that if you ever fall below 6 EP in that fight, you instantly die. And yes, it still costs you 2 EP per round.

[champskees]

Jan 12, 2019 23:06:14 GMT Ofecks said:

You can't use MB on the reavers because as bravestar said, you can't even get there without Psi-surge.

I believe it's reasonable to assume, in this case, that if you ever fall below 6 EP in that fight, you instantly die. And yes, it still costs you 2 EP per round.

I respectfully disagree. MB and Psi Surge are one of those things that Dever consistently mentions can/cannot be used in a combat throughout the series. In this combat, he is particularly explicit in what may not be used. MB and Psi bonuses are not on that list.

The para states that it should be resolved as a regular combat. Shadow Reavers are not immune to MB or Psi and imo their bonuses should be applied as per regular combat.

For me, the harshest application would be that you have to use Psi every round, but you would still get the standard +4 CS bonus for this. Personally I feel it's fine to use MB/Psi however you wish, [good] that book in particular is bloody hard enough as it is!

I mean what about lore circles? The lore circle of fire is gained from Huntmastery and Weaponmastery, two of the most physical disciplines. Should the +1 CS bonus from this circle be applied considering it is a psychic combat?

[bravestar]

Jan 12, 2019 21:52:24 GMT ajvn said:

Thank you for your profound analysis. This is really an ambiguous place. There is another problem connected to it. What if I have the Psi-Surge but cannot use it due to low Endurance? Can I still enter the psychic combat? Or what happens if I fall under 6 points during the combat itself? One could also raise the question if we are supposed to pay 2 Endurance points per round in this combat or not.

You could argue it either way, I think.    I'll try to explain.

First off, we're told you need Psi-Surge and you're thrown into combat.   That means you'd be using psi surge in combat, and thus get the bonus (and penalty) even if it's not explicitly stated.  Including the -2 EP per round. 

Second example is more contextual.  Not every (non-combat) use of Psi-Surge in the Magnakai series involves an EP loss.   Such as Book 6 where you use Psi-Surge or Nexus to weaken the Rust on a door.

In book 7 again you have Section 13 and it even explicitly says no EP loss is incurred.   On the other hand, you also have Section 179 and section 265 which say otherwise. 

And yet again in Jungle of Horror you have section 49 and section 260 which involve Psi-Surge usage without EP loss.

In this case you're drawing more specific distinctions.  You are using Psi-Surge, but it's not necessarily the 'normal' usage that the rules identify (using Psi-surge in conjunction with normal weapons, whereas a purely psychic 'attack' is more nebulous)    We also aren't told WHY Psi-Surge's possesion is relevant (is it knowledge of how to conduct the combat AND raw power given by the talent, or just one?  Knowledge would not necessarily involve EP loss, but power might.)   You could also assume the EP loss for use of Psi-Surge is assumed to be part of any losses incurred in the combat (Combat is pretty abstracted so what the EP losses or lack of losses represent is also open to debate.  If your enemy loses EP and you don't in a given round, it could be for reasons not relating to use of the psychic power directly.) 

Basically, go with whatever gives you the best balance of challenge and enjoyment for the conflict.   I would suggest for consistency's sake that if you choose the second option I suggested and don't deduct 2 EP per turn of psychic combat, you also omit the CS bonus for use of Psi-Surge for the sake of consistency and observing those parts of the rules at least.  The rest of it is more open ended, but that much is clear (and it wouldn't be fair to boost your CS by four and not deduct the EP, anyhow.) 

[ajvn]

Is there anybody who would not apply the +4 Psi-Surge bonus?

[Lucy Van Pelt]

Jan 16, 2019 9:28:18 GMT ajvn said:

Is there anybody who would not apply the +4 Psi-Surge bonus?

I wont apply. Because this is cheating through double counting. Simple. If u want to cheat, dont play.

[ajvn]

Jan 16, 2019 10:09:38 GMT Lucy Van Pelt said:

Jan 16, 2019 9:28:18 GMT ajvn said:

Is there anybody who would not apply the +4 Psi-Surge bonus?

I wont apply. Because this is cheating through double counting. Simple. If u want to cheat, dont play.

What do you mean by double counting? Could you please explain? Do you imply
that the +4 bonus is already calculated in Shadow Reaver's CS? I do not cheat and
I play strictly according the rules. This is why I created this thread so we can clarify
the situation. Many thanks

[Lucy Van Pelt]

Jan 16, 2019 11:22:17 GMT ajvn said:

Jan 16, 2019 10:09:38 GMT Lucy Van Pelt said:

I wont apply. Because this is cheating through double counting. Simple. If u want to cheat, dont play.

What do you mean by double counting? Could you please explain? Do you imply
that the +4 bonus is already calculated in Shadow Reaver's CS? I do not cheat and
I play strictly according the rules. This is why I created this thread so we can clarify
the situation. Many thanks

That +4 bonus has already been included. Common sense right? Only Charlie Brown doesnt have common sense.

[bravestar]

Again the obvious counterargument to its implied inclusion is that you're not deducting 2 ep per turn automatically as the Psi-Surge rules indicate. Also in adding up all the bonuses, its implied you use your base* Combat Skill, which doesn't include Psi-Surge by definition. As I said there are other ways to interpret it, but that is a fairly strong one IMHO. Another more literal-inclined interpretation could be 'its not mentioned, it can't be used.'

Another argument against it is challenge. If you look at the bonuses you are allowed:

*+1 CS for every Magnakai discipline above the first 3. Which could be as high as +5 if you start with book 6
*+2 CS for the Silver Helm if you have it.
*+3 CS for the Psychic Ring if you have it.
*+3 CS for the Grey Crystal Ring if you have it.

And that's on top of any lore circle bonuses you get (Spirit and Huntmastery seem likely, so upwards of another +5 CS)

Thats a +18 bonus if I did my math right, and added to base combat skill that can be anywhere from 28-37 CS. That can really nerf any sort of challenge barring other factors (a very low EP, a very injured Lone Wolf, etc.) and it would make any further bonuses redundant.

I've also read at least one opinion on a wiki stating that from a stats perspective +4 CS isn't worth a guaranteed 2 EP loss per round except in certain situations. I haven't tested that so I can't confirm it, but it's worth mentioning as a possibility, at least.

Again I suggest go with what gives you the best challenge/enjoyment for the situation. It's ambiguous enough you can justify it however you like, since ultimately it affects you and you alone.

*One 'homebrew' option here gets back to me mentioning the psychic combat in Book 8, where your CS is a flat 15 instead of (presumably) your base CS.   Given how the bonuses may or may not stack up you may choose to substitute the book 8 rules for book 11 with the Shadow Reavers unofficially.   Whether its a challenge or benefit would depend on the LW character of course. 

It really tempts me to see if the variations here could be played with to permit a LW to develop more generic rules for 'psychic combat' as a substitute for physical (Eg attacking purely with your mind, instead of a weapon.)  I've toyed with that along with trying to devise ways that would allow the use of magic, bows, throwing weapons, etc. like exist for myriad variations of the base LW game rules, simply for variety and versatility. 

[Oiseau]

I can confirm, for what it's worth, that mathematically speaking, getting +4CS in exchange for –2EP per round is disadvantageous to the player in most circumstances, especially since you often get +2CS for free. In situations where basic Mindblast is ineffective, using Psi-Surge for +4 is a net positive if, and only if, your Combat Ratio is –5 or less, or specifically –3 or –1 (because then you move forward three columns instead of two on the Combat Results Table — a result of 0 being a separate column).

Which is why, should there ever come a day where Autumn Snow reaches Magnakaï level, I'm changing it to –1EP per round.

[champskees]

Jan 17, 2019 18:34:13 GMT bravestar said:

Again the obvious counterargument to its implied inclusion is that you're not deducting 2 ep per turn automatically as the Psi-Surge rules indicate. Also in adding up all the bonuses, its implied you use your base* Combat Skill, which doesn't include Psi-Surge by definition. As I said there are other ways to interpret it, but that is a fairly strong one IMHO. Another more literal-inclined interpretation could be 'its not mentioned, it can't be used.'

Another argument against it is challenge. If you look at the bonuses you are allowed:

*+1 CS for every Magnakai discipline above the first 3. Which could be as high as +5 if you start with book 6
*+2 CS for the Silver Helm if you have it.
*+3 CS for the Psychic Ring if you have it.
*+3 CS for the Grey Crystal Ring if you have it.

And that's on top of any lore circle bonuses you get (Spirit and Huntmastery seem likely, so upwards of another +5 CS)

Thats a +18 bonus if I did my math right, and added to base combat skill that can be anywhere from 28-37 CS. That can really nerf any sort of challenge barring other factors (a very low EP, a very injured Lone Wolf, etc.) and it would make any further bonuses redundant.

I've also read at least one opinion on a wiki stating that from a stats perspective +4 CS isn't worth a guaranteed 2 EP loss per round except in certain situations. I haven't tested that so I can't confirm it, but it's worth mentioning as a possibility, at least.

Again I suggest go with what gives you the best challenge/enjoyment for the situation. It's ambiguous enough you can justify it however you like, since ultimately it affects you and you alone.

*One 'homebrew' option here gets back to me mentioning the psychic combat in Book 8, where your CS is a flat 15 instead of (presumably) your base CS.   Given how the bonuses may or may not stack up you may choose to substitute the book 8 rules for book 11 with the Shadow Reavers unofficially.   Whether its a challenge or benefit would depend on the LW character of course. 

It really tempts me to see if the variations here could be played with to permit a LW to develop more generic rules for 'psychic combat' as a substitute for physical (Eg attacking purely with your mind, instead of a weapon.)  I've toyed with that along with trying to devise ways that would allow the use of magic, bows, throwing weapons, etc. like exist for myriad variations of the base LW game rules, simply for variety and versatility. 

Just on the Psi-surge comments, I have written a couple of python scripts that test combats and can confirm that the use of Psi-surge in combat is generally not recommended, especially if you can just use Mindblast. It does appear to be on a case by case basis, but in addition to the factors you have mentioned, other issues to consider include whether there are any subsequent fights and how ep loss from the use of psi surge is treated in terms of healing/curing.

At lower CS levels, being forced to use Psi surge every round reduces your odds materially in the Shadow Reaver combat, though it is still very winnable. I think it would be quite unlikely that a CS 10-12 would have the Grey Crystal Ring.