andyc
Kai Lord
Posts: 210
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Post by andyc on May 29, 2019 15:34:35 GMT
Back in the day, I only got as far as Jungle of Horrors before moving on to other things. Now, thanks to Project Aon, I have recently completed my long over-due marathon playthrough of all original 28 books. Much has been said of the first 20, of which I enjoyed all immensely, but less has been said of the New Order books due to their original scarcity; therefore I decided I would write down my thoughts on each book while they were fresh in my mind.
21 - The Voyage of the Moonstone Bit of a come down in excitement after a journey through the realm of Darkness and confronting Naar himself, but it is a serviceable adventure involving Sea journeys and the various coastal locations towards Dessi. The climax with the town murders and chase up the bell tower was the highlight, thought it was followed by a rather stuck on extra battle.
22 Buccaneers of Shadaki I enjoyed this book the least compared to all 21 previous books. This was just a continuation of the previous book with more boating adventures, ship wrecks and coastal towns and villages. It all blended into one boring drawn out adventure of mostly unrelated episodes. Worse still there is a sniff of racism, I felt, in some of the scenarios involving the communities met on the way. A damp squib finish is the last nail in the coffin with the vague villain of the duology Seska (sp?) seemingly been forgotten about.
23 Mydnight's Hero A much more enjoyable race against time across the southern continent compared to the last book. Certainly a linear tale and therefore less interesting on repeat playthrough, but since I only went through it the once, I found it perfectly fine. There was no particular standout sequence, but the whole adventure has a nice quick pace to it with no weak parts.
24 Rune War I had heard this was the best of the New Order books, and although it was better than the first two, it didn't seem to be anything special. A visit to the Stornlands area for the third time (after Kingdoms of Terror and Dawn of the Dragons) made this book seem a bit repetitive as well as the lacklustre villain who couldn't hold a candle to the like of Gnaag, Cadak and all the Demon Lords and Death Lords of the first 20. Okay I guess.
25 Trail of the Wolf Ah, I am a sucker for an infiltration adventure into another wretched den of ex-Dark Lord servants and this was great. Xaol's appearance was brief but he made a much better antagonist than the rest of the New Order villains. The heart in your mouth escape with Lone Wolf was especially good. Best of the New Order books for me.
26 Fall of Blood Mountain A refreshingly new location for Dever in the bowels of an overrun dwarvern empire. It could have gone all slow burn Mines of Moria, but instead it had a quick pace as you try to rescue the trapped princes before it was too late. I did enjoy the idea of the farm fields deep underground as well as the nicely balanced battle against the big bad followed by a desperate final battle. This was probably my second favourite of the New Orders.
27 Vampirium Not quite a bad as book 22 which I found actively tedious, whereas this one was just forgettable. The initial event trying to surprise the party of enemies in the mountain pass, as well as the surprise sudden appearance of Sejanoz at the end were the vague highlights, but the vast majority of it was bland as hell. Also it seemed surprisingly short. How such previous adventures could be contained within the same number of 350 sections and yet feel far more epic and wide ranging (Dawn of the Dragons especially) is a mystery.
28 The Hunger of Sejanoz With this final book only containing 300 sections, I had assumed it would feel as short, if not shorter than Vampirium; but that was not the case and I quite enjoyed my journey with the Chai royal family as they fled the armies if Sejanoz. The only disappointment (other than Sejanoz's magically teleporting army) was the pathetically easy final confrontation. It will be interesting to see if this is rectified when the re-release with the 50 missing sections arrives hopefully one day.
All in all, the Kai, Magnakai and Grand Master books were far superior, with only a few of the New Order books being on a similar level to an average earlier book. I have book 29 now to read and from the initial pages it looks like the stakes and general overall plot are better.
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Post by Ofecks on May 29, 2019 23:27:38 GMT
22 was interesting for me in that it retreads lands from the Grey Star series. Honestly, though, as much as I love the LW universe, I'm not all that familiar with the NO books. I've played them through exactly once and I don't remember much other than bits and pieces here and there. Now that the android app is finished I guess I could check that out.
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Post by wisestrider on May 30, 2019 10:48:16 GMT
One point I'd make quite strongly about the New Order series is that even though some of the stories / locations are getting a bit repetitive by this point I find these are the best balanced book's due to the fact everyone has a Kai Weapon - no Somerswerd issues here.
So I'd argue these are definitely worth playing - but I'd also suggest reading these as a standalone series rather than after reading the other 20 books - it helps reduce the repetition issues and everything gets reset for the new grand master anyway.
I have a slightly different take on these books:
21 - In many ways felt like a reimagined Fire on the Water to me - like Joe wanted another go at that kind of long journey across land & sea using everything he'd learned since that book was written - I enjoyed briefly revisiting Vassagonia and adventuring in Dessi proper for the first time. One of my favourite New Order Book's (mainly due to the game balance shake up - gives things a bit of a Kingdom's of Terror vibe - familiar but fresh).
22 - my enjoyment of this is hurt by being right after Book 21 - enjoyed seeing Southern Magnamund but that's about it really - feels really different to the Southern Magnamund you see in the Grey Star book's but that could be explained to be due to the events of that series. It's also very similar in structure to the previous book - although should we really think of these as 2 parts of a single book?
23 - enjoyable enough but it is another long journey right after 2 other long journeys - would rank between 21 & 22 as it moves away from travelling along the coast so at least feels a bit different - would probably like more if it came later in the series (these first 3 books feel very similar & this part of Southern Magnamund being all new only helps a bit - moving this to later in the run would help solve that problem).
24 - quite enjoyed this for what it is - but agree that I really didn't need to visit this part of Magnamund again and that made it feel a bit stale overall - my issues could be fixed by changing the location.
25 - classic infiltration book here - see comments about balance above - helps push this towards the top of the list if you were to rank this type of adventure across the series.
26 - love this book because it feels so different to any other in the series - both the setting and the scenario / how it plays out feel very unique but it all fits together very well.
27 - this book gives a much better look into Southern Magnamund than books 22 & 23 did even though it focuses on a different part. But the adventure itself is lacking something.
28 - always disappointed in this one - 300 sections and they lack the detail I've come to expect from this series - at times it feels like a first draft - but the adventure itself still works.
29 - really enjoyed this - but feels so removed from the rest of the New Order books (Joe's writing has changed in the years between) that it almost feels like it's part of a different series.
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andyc
Kai Lord
Posts: 210
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Post by andyc on May 30, 2019 15:54:19 GMT
Yes, it is a good point about the far better balance of the New Order books. The Kai and MagnaKai books are better if you leave the Sommerswerd in safe keeping after book 2, and only bring it out for book 12 (though I did choose to have a fair battle with Gnaag rather than just zapping him anticlimatically)
Books 29-32 will likely feel like their own miniseries separate from the 21-28, due to the passage of time and now (sadly) change in authors.
Thanks for your thoughts on the books. The three long journey books at the start was probably not the best for sales originally, especially when interest was moving away anyway.
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Post by GhostofLandar on May 30, 2019 17:18:22 GMT
andyc,
You mention racism in Book 22, but considering many of these places are semi-analogs (not as direct as Warhammer's stuff) for real world past cultures, what was it that was racist as opposed to depicting something negative? If anything, I think Joe established the malevolence of the racism of Vassa towards non-Vassa peoples and of Eldenorans towards everyone who isn't Eldenoran. Is it because of the 'indigenous' cultures of Shadaki? Just trying to figure out what you're referring to since the NO books are first time I felt overtly political vibes from Joe (the racism of Eldenorans towards the Suhnese crew) and it wasn't "pro-racism."
Back to the subject of the books, I do feel like there's a bit of slippage but I also read them at a different time in my life, as an adult. It's strange to think how the mystery and wonder if Chasm of Doom, Fire on the Water and even the icy adventure in Kalte captivated me so, but going to Bor wasn't the same magical experience. I do think Storms of Chai was a lot better and offered more characterization for non-Kai characters. One thing I think I missed just scanning through 21 was the sense of grief the Kirlundin marines felt over losing Davan, and it mirrors how traumatized the NO Kai's Chai characters were by their companions deaths and the slaughter of civilians.
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Post by Oiseau on May 30, 2019 17:49:14 GMT
Personally, I'm not sold on the New Order series. Although general Lone Wolf nostalgia casts them in a positive light for me, they do have severe flaws:
• Horrible linearity, to the point of being novels in disguise. This also makes any playthrough very time-consuming in the real world, since you'll be reading like 80% of the text of each book. • Frequent arbitrary situations you cannot avoid through any combination of strategy or foresight (that gladiator still sticks in my craw, as does the goon who steals your Kai Weapon). • Fake difficulty (oh, you're travelling through hills? Mudslide. Through plains? Wild animal stampede. At sea? Storm sinks your ship… etc). I wouldn't mind so much if those were random events along the way, but they're scripted, they happen every time you replay the book, and you can't take a different path. • The ceaseless, increasingly annoying, constant EP losses at every turn. I swear, half the sections in Book 26 contain either the phrase "Pick a number from the RNT" or "Lose x Endurance points" or BOTH. You're not the hero at that point, you're the author's punching bag. • Add to that the relentless loss of Backpack Items that basically renders your Backpack storage pointless, as you cannot keep anything worthwhile for any length of time, unless you meta-game and fill your BP with crap items which you may then elect to lose when you take that inevitable tumble down the grassy knoll. • Ever-increasing game balance issues. Right out of the gate, the first books cannot be won with low stats (courtesy of a few unavoidable boss-level combats, such as that gladiator). Then the power gap between a novice player and a veteran just widens and widens, with no corrective in sight. The result is that books 25, 26, 27… are increasingly impossible as stand-alone adventures, and increasingly a joke if you've played every book before them. This culminates in Book 29, where they really should have reset the character, given 18 years have passed anyway. I mean, hell, the newbie will lack 8 Grand Disciplines, 12 points of CS (possibly 14 if you allow the Ang'Sei to stack with the Korlinium Chainmail), 16 EP, and a ton of bonus items compared to the vet. Can you imagine how bad this will get in books 30, 31 and 32 ?? • Very bad Discipline balance. You basically have no choice but to select the CS-boosting Disciplines (Kai Surge and Weapon Mastery) as they account for 13 points of CS; Deliverance is a must for any standalone attempt, and Kai Alchemy is ridiculously OP, so out of four starting Disciplines, well, you can't really choose at all, can you? At the other end of the spectrum, Astrology and Bardsmanship are utterly Shi'ite, Elementalism and Magi-Magic are just pale copies of Kai Alchemy, Intuition never actually helps you or gets you out of trouble (that gladiator), Herbmastery is borderline junk since it is required so seldomly… The end result is by the time you're up to Book 25 or 26, you have all the Kai Disciplines you'll ever really need.
On the other hand, Joe Dever does seem to have stopped his reliance on "falling masts" to increase difficulty (except with that gladiator again), it's fun to explore Southern Magnamund, and there's a refreshing absence of Shadow Gates and parallel worlds. Plus, it's still Lone Wolf. But I can understand why the New Order series is not considered the best. It's too bad, there were some fun ideas there.
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andyc
Kai Lord
Posts: 210
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Post by andyc on May 31, 2019 11:54:28 GMT
andyc, You mention racism in Book 22, but considering many of these places are semi-analogs (not as direct as Warhammer's stuff) for real world past cultures, what was it that was racist as opposed to depicting something negative? If anything, I think Joe established the malevolence of the racism of Vassa towards non-Vassa peoples and of Eldenorans towards everyone who isn't Eldenoran. Is it because of the 'indigenous' cultures of Shadaki? Just trying to figure out what you're referring to since the NO books are first time I felt overtly political vibes from Joe (the racism of Eldenorans towards the Suhnese crew) and it wasn't "pro-racism." It was only very subtle and there was no malice from Joe Dever in it certainly. It was just the hint of 'white saviour' with the Shadaki tribes sections. It was just the feel I got from it at the time, nothing that bad.
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Post by Nym90 on May 31, 2019 17:47:03 GMT
Regarding game balance issues, it never made sense to me why Curing is so much less powerful in the New Order series than Lone Wolf's was. Even basic Healing in the Kai series has no limit on how many EP can be restored per book. The "only 10 EP can be restored per book" rule seems like just an arbitrary way to make the books harder.
I don't mind revisiting familiar locales from earlier books. I enjoyed seeing how they changed over time. I can understand why that wouldn't be for everyone though, considering how many areas of Magnamund we haven't seen at all yet that could have been explored instead.
I am pretty sure I remember Joe confirming at some point that Hunger of Sejanoz was rushed to print because the series was coming to a close...that would explain why it feels like a first draft, because it may very well have been. Also why it has only 300 sections instead of the standard 350. Hopefully that book can still be expanded/improved upon when it is finally rereleased.
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Post by wisestrider on Jun 1, 2019 3:05:25 GMT
I think my issue with revisiting areas as in Rune War was the fact we had already seen it twice and when that book first came out I thought it was a step back from exploring the southern continent which the previous book had started to get stuck into. I generally enjoyed that adventure (Rune War) and briefly revisiting Vasagonia in Book 21 so I'm not against it per say. I agree it's nice to see how some area's change as the series progresses.
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Post by wisestrider on Jun 1, 2019 3:24:18 GMT
Ever-increasing game balance issues. Right out of the gate, the first books cannot be won with low stats (courtesy of a few unavoidable boss-level combats, such as that gladiator). Then the power gap between a novice player and a veteran just widens and widens, with no corrective in sight. To be fair I think most of the same issues you raise could also be applied to the Grand Master series - but that series has an added +8CS (& double damage to undead) swing on top of those issues you point out (which was only finally addressed in Book 20 with a new +5CS magic sword given to everyone who didn't have the Somerswerd). By comparison to that giving everyone a +5CS magic weapon (that you can't really loose and has additional varying situational bonuses that varies on how often it's likely to be used) as standard is much better from a game balance point of view. I mean whether you have an existing character or new at Book 13 you face very similar restrictions on which disciplines to take to have any real chance of getting through that book.
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Post by kurz81 on Jun 1, 2019 7:35:46 GMT
New Order books suffer from being predictable. They have very linear plot, your choices do not matter very much in the end.
There is lot of randomness in endurance loss, but generally you have less rolls of death if compared to to gm series lw13-20, which is good.
Overall they are well balanced considering gear and stats. The only challenges are lw21 and LW22. Starting with lw23 you can actually pick up any fights because you won't have CS issues. This is possible only if you take Grand Weapon mastery, Kai Surge AND Deliverance. To maximize your Endurance saving you should also have Grand Huntmastery and Herbmastery. This means again poor choices but many disciplines can really be neglected without issues. Books like lw25, 26 and 29 would be very hard for a new character, but I always consider to play all the way from lw21 to LW30. Last note: illustrations of new order books are less original than older series, for me it is a minus.
LW21: vote 7 Great intro, good fights but repetitive: can't feel the difference between the many cities along the way. Missing also the big bad at the end of the book. No items aside starting gear, well Valiance Kai weapon is very good anyway.
LW22: vote 6 So boring. All cities seem the same. Just a hit and run repeated too many times. Many endurance losses will drain your EP constantly. You will need all the potions you can get. You can replenish them in the end when you don't need them... Again, missing a real adversary. I save this book only for talisman of defiance +2cs.
LW23: vote 7 Another long run but this time with little more variations. Very linear plot until the end where you can actually fight Sadanzo himself for some fun. You will never have problems with EP here. Overall good story.
LW24: vote 8.5 Super start with the Kai Crusade. Too bad not even a picture! Great choice possibility: if you decide to fight Zorkaan, you will need Kai Screen and the blue vial. This is probably the most epic fight of first books. Otherwise you can avoid Zorkaan for few Vorka fights. Very good story but too easy ending.
LW25: Vote 7 Again many EP random losses. You will probably use Deliverance here. Difficult plot choices (Lone Wolf is OP, he will save you when you should have been the one who saved him) but in the end it works anyway.
LW26: vote 9 A goldmine of items! So happy! Additional bag space, Korlinium Chainmail +2cs! And +5cs Warhammer and BattleAxe :-) Also a great big bad with 56cs! If you don't want to fight him you can just roll of luck and autowin. Nice story and more original location. One of my favorite so far.
LW27: vote 6.5 Medium good story and almost no fights... Bad choices at the end: if you don't submit you lose all the backpack... Also why did you damage my Kai weapon... I almost cry every time! Just fix this before LW32!
LW28: vote 6.5 Good items like Kirusami spear +1cs (finally I can use Ignite Weapons) and Angsei (+2cs). Hardest fight with Brumalghasts 59cs is actually very easy with all the bonuses. Story is kinda too simple but the real problem is the end. Too fast with no real confrontation. Really feels like you're missing something.
LW29: vote 7,5 Nice story but too linear. There are literally no choices to make. Great showdown fights at the end with good enemies. Constant EP losses will make this book hard enough even for veterans. Also at Chai armory you can get the imperial bow.
LW30: vote 9.5 For nostalgic players. Full of items. Many difficult fights. Strategy here is important. Epic moments and great story. What can I ask for more? Maybe for more books? Keep up the great job.
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andyc
Kai Lord
Posts: 210
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Post by andyc on Jun 2, 2019 18:04:11 GMT
Ooh, you have read book 30! Great to hear that it is epic and full of nostalgia also. Hopefully it won't be too much longer for the English version
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xeon
Kai Lord
Posts: 10
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Post by xeon on Jun 17, 2019 10:11:09 GMT
I assume we're making some kind of irony here on books 29 and 30 ...
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andyc
Kai Lord
Posts: 210
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Post by andyc on Jun 17, 2019 12:37:43 GMT
I assume we're making some kind of irony here on books 29 and 30 ... No irony. Books 29 and 30 do exist. 29, The Storms of Chai, was written published by Joe Dever just before his death. I am currently reading it for the first time now and it does seem to be a step up in quality from some of the New Order books. Very linear to be fair, but then it feels really long unlike the strangely short feel I got from Vampirium. Book 30, Dead in the Deep has already been released in Italian. We should be receiving word on an English release very soon from Ben Dever.
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Post by WaitingOnPassword on Jun 21, 2019 9:28:02 GMT
Of the New Order series, Mydnight's Hero and Rune War were my favourites.
I liked Mydnight's Hero because it was similar in style to Dawn of the Dragons, with Lone Wolf on a long trek, travelling through Magnamund, and those stories appeal to me. Rune War felt like an old-school Magnakai adventure, and it had a Dungeons of Torgar vibe to it.
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