About Vashna . . . ( spoilers ahead, #17, #30, #31)

[True Ben]

Hello, 

Spoilers ahead.




I'll refer to books 17, 30, and 31: The Deathlord of Ixia, Dead in the Deep, and The Dusk of Eternal Night, respectively.








   Can someone help me see the plausibility of Vashna being as powerful as he was portrayed in book 31? For a long-dead Archlord who had been rotting in the Maakengorge for over a thousand years, he seems to be way too powerful coming back, so much so that the Kai weapons New Order Grandmasters wield would not hurt him; only the Sommerswerd *might* stop him. Also, how is he able to devise counters to Kai disciplines for his Heldajdok-taagim assassins? Wasn't he slain *before* the Kai Lords existed? On the other hand, I would've thought Agarash the Damned to be the most powerful villain considering the power dynamics laid out in book 17: The land of Ixia was ruled by Deathlord Ixiataaga. The Darklords (and I assume this also includes Archlord Vashna) during the Age of the Black Moon feared setting foot in Ixia for fear of inadvertently setting him free. Yet Ixiataaga served as Lieutenant *under*  the command of Agarash during the Age of Eternal Night. Yet, the New Order Grandmaster that readers will play as would defeat Agarash with just a Kai Weapon.

   I can see Vashna being one of apparently at least several threats to the free, good people of Magnamund. But the way he is portrayed in The Dusk of Eternal Night is just way over the top for me.


Thanks.

[wisestrider]

I'm not sure where but I remember reading something about the 20 Dark Lords having their power split & shared between them.

Do theoretically when one dies their power is redistributed to the survivors.

Vashna was never killed originally, rather he was sealed away / banished from Magnamund similar to Agarash the Damned.

When he is reborn, the power of the other 19 Dark Lords is his to command.

I think some of this is speculation from me, but I'm filling gaps in something half remembered - I'm not even sure if what I remember (the Dark Lords sharing power) was official, clearly stated, or just hinted at.

I think it might have come from an explanation / speculation about the Nengud-kor-Adez being essentially the source of the Dark Lords power, when they die their share of that power returns to the pool & that pool is now merged with Vashna when he's reborn.

He was originally the strongest of the 20 Dark Lords, now he has the power of all 20 Dark Lords.

[True Ben]

Dec 21, 2023 0:38:54 GMT wisestrider said:

I'm not sure where but I remember reading something about the 20 Dark Lords having their power split & shared between them.

Do theoretically when one dies their power is redistributed to the survivors.

Vashna was never killed originally, rather he was sealed away / banished from Magnamund similar to Agarash the Damned.

When he is reborn, the power of the other 19 Dark Lords is his to command.

I think some of this is speculation from me, but I'm filling gaps in something half remembered - I'm not even sure if what I remember (the Dark Lords sharing power) was official, clearly stated, or just hinted at.

I think it might have come from an explanation / speculation about the Nengud-kor-Adez being essentially the source of the Dark Lords power, when they die their share of that power returns to the pool & that pool is now merged with Vashna when he's reborn.

He was originally the strongest of the 20 Dark Lords, now he has the power of all 20 Dark Lords.

That can explain how his power grew. But if Vashna can grow in power, so can Agarash and other champions of Naar, just as Lone wolf and other champions of Kai can as well, so I don't understand why he seems to be equal to or even superior to Agarash. It also doesn't explain the other inconsistencies I mentioned.

[lorddarkstorm]

Vashna merged with the lake of blood, so I assume that boosted his power.

Also, I haven't reread 30/31 since they came out, but didn't LW "kill him" a few times, but because of the power of the lake he can now easy be reformed from it? So the problem is not so much his overall power but being unable to finish him off. Might be wrong but I don't think he actually has more raw power then Agarash.

For the assassins, I don't recall that part of it (him directly devising the counters), but his spirit would have seen Kai Disciplines in use directly in book 5 & 16, and perhaps he could also commune with his disciples about them.

[True Ben]

Dec 21, 2023 16:39:55 GMT lorddarkstorm said:

Vashna merged with the lake of blood, so I assume that boosted his power.

Also, I haven't reread 30/31 since they came out, but didn't LW "kill him" a few times, but because of the power of the lake he can now easy be reformed from it? So the problem is not so much his overall power but being unable to finish him off. Might be wrong but I don't think he actually has more raw power then Agarash.

For the assassins, I don't recall that part of it (him directly devising the counters), but his spirit would have seen Kai Disciplines in use directly in book 5 & 16, and perhaps he could also commune with his disciples about them.

You're correct; Lone Wolf couldn't permanently destroy Vashna, even with the Sommerswerd. I think he would be better portrayed as a recurring villain than the primary threat to Magnamund. 

    Vashna might have glimpsed Kai disciplines in use in book 16: The Legacy of Vashna and book 4: The Chasm of Doom (Vashna didn't appear in book 5), but it wouldn't be enough time for him to reverse-engineer the disciplines, let alone devise counters to them. As far as I recall, it's often the case that Lone Wolf carried out his missions under different guises, so Vashna's acolytes likely would not learn anything about the Kai disciplines. If they ever did, it was likely if Lone Wolf's identity was exposed, but then Lone Wolf and the acolytes would fight each other, leaving hardly any time for them to learn anything. Any knowledge they did obtain would die with them at the hands of Lone Wolf.

[Sword Rune]

I doubt the Darklords, when incarnate, had a Highlander-esque "There can be only one!" ability to grow stronger as others died. It's doubtful that Naar would place that great a temptation of power among them, lest they forget their mission. In book #12, Lone Wolf's cover can be blown if he bluffs to Taktaal that he has information to destroy his rival Ghanesh--I take that to mean there was an implicit rule among the Darklords, "Don't kill your own kind."

My own theory on LW vs. Vashna, and his newfound resistance to the Sommerswerd, is that since his body is now the Nengud-kor-Adez itself, it's simply too vast a thing for the Sommerswerd to completely destroy. When LW zapped him in Duadon in DoEN, that might have been a learning experience for him...Not to manifest completely in a single form, because it would be vulnerable.

Personally, I could see LW lending (or giving) the Sommerswerd to his student to fight Agarash, while he comes up with some new way to handle Vashna...possibly by finding a way to exorcise the souls trapped inside the Nengud-kor-Adez? The Adez is essentially a colossal storage battery, so there would have to be a limit to its power--Vashna's boasts notwithstanding.

As for the Heldajdok-Taagim, eh.. The Darklords would have studied their enemies for centuries, and had both the Nadziranim and telepathic, shapeshifting Helghasts to gather information. It's not surprising that they'd have a reasonable estimate of the Kai Order's abilities--though Lone Wolf's Grand Master discoveries resulted in some nasty surprises for them--Teakkro found that out the hard way!

[Sword Rune]

Correction:  Ruanon, not Duadon. *^_^*

[True Ben]

Dec 22, 2023 17:14:13 GMT Sword Rune said:

As for the Heldajdok-Taagim, eh.. The Darklords would have studied their enemies for centuries, and had both the Nadziranim and telepathic, shapeshifting Helghasts to gather information. It's not surprising that they'd have a reasonable estimate of the Kai Order's abilities--though Lone Wolf's Grand Master discoveries resulted in some nasty surprises for them--Teakkro found that out the hard way!

I still find it surprising that the counters to Kai Disciplines were as fine-tuned as Vashna's girlfriend demonstrated. Also, she credits Vashna as the one who “… studied your Sun-cursed order from within his prison and endowed the Chosen Ones with just a touch of the powers of Naar…(book 30, section 44), ” It does seem plausible, though, that his Nadziranim (if they are alive) and Helghasts could have tried to acquire knowledge of Kai abilities, though it is quite a stretch for me to imagine exactly how they would succeed. Might a Helghast have infiltrated the Kai Order? Very doubtful, and perish the thought!

[zorkraan]

True Ben

Thanks for your interest in these books, always happy to see a brainstorm about them arise. I feel you’ve been disappointed by the respective power levels shown by the antagonists of LW30-31, and it saddens me, let me bring some explanations/clarifications to untangle the issues you raised.

SPOILERS AHEAD.

Dec 21, 2023 16:16:34 GMT True Ben said:

Can someone help me see the plausibility of Vashna being as powerful as he was portrayed in book 31? For a long-dead Archlord who had been rotting in the Maakengorge for over a thousand years, he seems to be way too powerful coming back, so much so that the Kai weapons New Order Grandmasters wield would not hurt him; only the Sommerswerd *might* stop him.

First, you seem to assume here that the resurrection of Vashna would have left him weak and depowered if it happened, which has never been hinted in the books. On the contrary, if resurrected the “normal way” in book 4 or 16, he would have returned in all his evil glory, that of the most powerful Darklord in existence, just slightly weaker than Deathlord Ixiataaga (Vashna's original stats were CS = 58 and END = 88 for your info, according to the LW Club Newsletter 6), and yes, weaker than Supreme Master Lone Wolf.

Second, you assume the New Order Kai Weapons could destroy a Darklord, but nothing has supported this in the books. They cannot. Remember they could not even kill Autarch Sejanoz or the Shom’zaa in tomes 26, 27 and 28 either (whereas these entities were weaker than Vashna). The Kai Weapons are less powerful than the Sommerswerd, because forged only by Lone Wolf, not by the God Kai and the Nuoma.

That being said, Vashna did not return in the normal way in the end of Book 30, this is what you have to keep in mind. As already pointed in this thread, his soul was fused by accident with the protean evil entity that the Nengud-kor-Adez has become since the destruction of Helgedad. Imagine a gigantic mindless amoeba, empowered by hundreds of thousands of burning souls, suddenly gifted with the cruel spirit of a Darklord… The Darklords were born in the Nengud-kor-Adez, and this entity can recreate their bodies at will now. What the reader faces in LW31 is thus a fiery body in the likeness of Vashna empowered by the Nengud-kor-Adez, and controlled remotely by the spirit of Vashna. It is indeed more powerful than what Vashna was when he was alive. Joe Dever, before his passing, explained us it was a “superpowerful entity”. Such a body, however, has still Darklord traits, and can be destroyed by the Sommerswerd. But… it is not Vashna, just a puppet. If this avatar is destroyed, the spirit of Vashna still exists in the Nengud-kor-Adez, which can generate another body, then another, and so on… The Sommerswerd appears to be not the key anymore to eliminate Vashna because it is the Nengud-kor-Adez which has to be defeated.

Dec 21, 2023 16:16:34 GMT True Ben said:

On the other hand, I would've thought Agarash the Damned to be the most powerful villain considering the power dynamics laid out in book 17: The land of Ixia was ruled by Deathlord Ixiataaga. The Darklords (and I assume this also includes Archlord Vashna) during the Age of the Black Moon feared setting foot in Ixia for fear of inadvertently setting him free. Yet Ixiataaga served as Lieutenant *under* the command of Agarash during the Age of Eternal Night. Yet, the New Order Grandmaster that readers will play as would defeat Agarash with just a Kai Weapon.

See above for the difference in power level between Ixiataaga and Vashna, which was in fact very tight.

Be careful, the final villain the readers fight in the end of book 31 is NOT Agarash the Damned in person. It is Vaagarash, i.e. the Vaag Prime empowered remotely by Agarash, who took control of his body and injected a fraction of his power in it for the final fight at the Monastery of Lorn. This creature is not Agarash or even one of his Children, it is just an Agarashi, which can still be destroyed by a Kai Weapon (which happens). It is much, much less powerful than Agarash himself, whose real strength will be most probably shown in the last book of the saga, who knows ;-) ?

If you really want to see what happens when the Kai Grand Master faces Agarash, please reread sections 60 or 250 of LW31. The aura of Agarash is so overwhelming that the Grand Master can only kneel before him, depowered just by the gaze of the Demonlord (like when Lone Wolf was depowered by the Doomstone of Darke in book 15)… Which doesn’t happen when he faces Vashna earlier in the book (who has to use a powerful spell to paralyze him, but only temporarily). To overwhelm Agarash’s aura in book 31, the Grand Master needs a gift from the God Kai to reach the rank of Supreme Master. And of course, his Kai Weapon is powerless facing Agarash (just as it was facing Sejanoz). The means to kill Agarash definitely remains to be discovered...

Dec 21, 2023 16:16:34 GMT True Ben said:

That can explain how his power grew. But if Vashna can grow in power, so can Agarash and other champions of Naar, just as Lone wolf and other champions of Kai can as well, so I don't understand why he seems to be equal to or even superior to Agarash.

If you really felt that, we missed the mark when writing the book and I apologize. Please be reassured, Agarash is still the most powerful villain on Magnamund (read again the sections in Naaros in book 31 to see what supports this claim). Simply, Vashna is not “just Vashna” anymore, and his body (weaker than Agarash’s) can be rebuilt at will by the Nengud-kor-Adez when destroyed. See Vashna as now invulnerable, and Agarash still as invincible…

Dec 21, 2023 16:16:34 GMT True Ben said:

I can see Vashna being one of apparently at least several threats to the free, good people of Magnamund. But the way he is portrayed in The Dusk of Eternal Night is just way over the top for me. [...]Lone Wolf couldn't permanently destroy Vashna, even with the Sommerswerd. I think he would be better portrayed as a recurring villain than the primary threat to Magnamund

This is your opinion, I can’t go against this feeling. Vashna's fate and big upgrade with the Nengud-kor-Adez in book 30 was Joe Dever's plan all along. I hope the clarifications above will at least help to ease your disappointment.

Dec 21, 2023 16:16:34 GMT True Ben said:

Also, how is he able to devise counters to Kai disciplines for his Heldajdok-taagim assassins? Wasn't he slain *before* the Kai Lords existed?

Technically, Vashna was indeed killed before the Order of the Kai exists (23 years, to be precise). But he did face people, and was actually defeated by people, who wielded Kai skills when he was alive, namely King Ulnar I and the future Grand Master Sun Eagle, namely Baron Shaen Ruanor of Toran. It was stated in the sourcebook The Realm of Sommerlund that they both had “skills that would later be known and recognized as Kai Disciplines, passed down from the gifted travellers who founded the kingdom.”

So the Spirit of Vashna witnessed the Kai Skills during the war which preceded his death, in MS 3799. And thus he had more than 1,200 years to ruminate on them!

Dec 21, 2023 16:16:34 GMT True Ben said:

Vashna might have glimpsed Kai disciplines in use in book 16: The Legacy of Vashna and book 4: The Chasm of Doom (Vashna didn't appear in book 5), but it wouldn't be enough time for him to reverse-engineer the disciplines, let alone devise counters to them. As far as I recall, it's often the case that Lone Wolf carried out his missions under different guises, so Vashna's acolytes likely would not learn anything about the Kai disciplines. If they ever did, it was likely if Lone Wolf's identity was exposed, but then Lone Wolf and the acolytes would fight each other, leaving hardly any time for them to learn anything. Any knowledge they did obtain would die with them at the hands of Lone Wolf.

You seem to consider the Spirit of Vashna had only Lone Wolf to observe in more than 1,200 years, whereas there have been thousands of Kai Lords since the founding of the Order in MS 3822… The Kai didn’t remain idle and their feats were material for the Darklord to study.

Other Lone Wolf medias (the Legends novels, the RPG material like the campaign Terror of the Darklords) have shown that the Spirit of Vashna, if entrapped in the Maakengorge, can “feel” what happens around the Chams of Doom, and also psychically interact with humans in this region. Some of them became his “Chosen Ones”, like Barraka in book 4, or Vorgada, Teakkro and Quazandra in book 30, which means they could communicate with his spirit and receive not only his guidance, but also some of his dark powers and knowledge. Such agents of Vashna have operated in the shadows during 1,200 years and have interacted with the inhabitants of Magnamund ever since, including the Kai Order, whom they fought, and sometimes captured, and studied, sending all the information their master needed. You have to consider there has been many struggles in the past between the agents of Vashna and the Kai (mostly unbeknownst to the latter who did not know whom they fought). There have also been upheavals by the sect of the Acolytes of Vashna. The sourcebook The Realm of Sommerlund has for instance related the Acolytes assaulted the fledgling city of Maaken in MS 3849 which was defended by Grand Master Shrewd Fox. Vashna observed everything at that time, learning important information about the many Kai Lords who fought that day.

See thus the Heldajdok-Taagim as the result of Vashna’s century old studies about the Kai Order… They can counter the Kai and Magnakai Disciplines wielded by the First Order Kai, but cannot counter the Grand Master Disciplines invented by Lone Wolf for the New Order. In this regard you are right, Vashna had no time, after book 16, to study the Grand Master disciplines and develop counter-disciplines, especially because… he is not powerful enough compared to Lone Wolf! Check again book 30, and you will see that the Grand Master Disciplines are the key to best Teakkro.

Vincent Lazzari

[kolinovic]

Fascinating discussion and tidbits! You've whetted my appetite even further for book 32!!

[askhati]

Where can I read more about these "Heldajdok-Taagim"?

[zorkraan]

Dec 27, 2023 17:05:08 GMT askhati said:

Where can I read more about these "Heldajdok-Taagim"?

Hi Askhati, only in LW30 for the moment. They are also featured in the bonus adventure of LW27 (which serves as bonus adventure of LW31).

[askhati]

I had some ideas for Helgedad-created assassins years ago, as a player class, but never got to finalise them beyond a first outline. I'm curious to see how my ideas from 2010/11 compare to these canon characters now

[True Ben]

zorkraan

Thank you, Mr. Lazzari, for your thoughtful reply. I have a better grasp now of Vashna's power, how it grew, and how he and his agents have obtained knowledge of Kai disciplines and devised counters to them, as well as the long history of his followers and the first Kai order. I'm glad that my understanding of the power dynamics among Naar's champions is correct; Agarash is still the most powerful villain in Magnamund, with his full power yet to be revealed. Don't get me wrong: call me old-fashioned, but I very much like to see the good guys win But their victories should be against very dangerous foes, and until now I did not include Vashna among them, though his newfound power is now more plausible to me, rather than seemingly out of nowhere. There are other questions I wonder about now, especially in light of recent episodes of the "Journeys Through Magnamund" podcast, but maybe those can be for future posts. Thanks again!

Ben

[zorkraan]

Jan 4, 2024 23:49:52 GMT True Ben said:

Thank you, Mr. Lazzari, for your thoughtful reply. I have a better grasp now of Vashna's power, how it grew, and how he and his agents have obtained knowledge of Kai disciplines and devised counters to them, as well as the long history of his followers and the first Kai order. I'm glad that my understanding of the power dynamics among Naar's champions is correct; Agarash is still the most powerful villain in Magnamund, with his full power yet to be revealed. Don't get me wrong: call me old-fashioned, but I very much like to see the good guys win But their victories should be against very dangerous foes, and until now I did not include Vashna among them, though his newfound power is now more plausible to me, rather than seemingly out of nowhere. There are other questions I wonder about now, especially in light of recent episodes of the "Journeys Through Magnamund" podcast, but maybe those can be for future posts. Thanks again!Ben

You're very welcome, thanks for your feedback. It's always nice and fun to come to chat about the books here. I'm sorry that our text caused you these issues with the power levels.
But yes, your understanding of the power dynamics is correct. Agarash is the Prince of the Darkness, the True Son of Naar, his greatest champion ever and he is much more powerful than Vashna.
That being said, Vashna should never be neglected. He has always been more powerful than any villain in the New Order series (except Agarash) ; His power was in fact already comparable with Ixiataaga's (their Combat Skills were close when Ixiataaga was armed with the Deathstaff and his Endurance was much greater ; their sets of powers and skills were different, which explains why Vashna was afraid of what curse Ixiataaga could unleash if freed). And now his soul is fused with this gigantic entity that is the Nengud-kor-Adez... which implies he has access to nearly unlimited magical power and resources.

I'll be very happy to address your other queries if I can.