SPOILER: New Flight from the Dark - Difficulty

[Enas]

Hello everyone,

is it just me or does the latest edition of FFtD really require a Combat Skill of 19?!?
I started the book with CS 15 (END 21) and planned on adding one point (2 points END) per book, so that LW would be at his full potential for the Magnakai Series. The Gourgaz got me down to 2 END, which was tough, but doable, but SPOILER: the unavoidable Helghast in the end really mopped the floor with me... Fighting on -7, i´d need to roll a series of 8-10s to stand a chance (bearing in mind the beast also has ~10 END more than i do).

Can it be that this was introduced to weed out characters to weak to win against Zakhan Kimah or the Chaosmaster in Book 1 already... so that you are not frustrated when you reach them, because you HAVE to have a 19/29 LW...?

Opinions (and sympathy ;-) ) are welcome,
Enas

P.S.: On a side note: Why are the "Bosses" you really need Mindblast, Psi-Surge, etc. also most likely immune to it?

[Doomy]

Before I answer your question I'll just quickly show you how to post spoilers in "invisible ink" since a lot of people here don't own the new FFTD yet:

Use the colour tags, like so:

{color=white}Write the spoiler here{/color}

You have to use [] square brackets, I only used curly ones {} above so the example was visible. That way, anyone who wants to read the spoiler can highlight it to make it legible, but you can't read it by accident. It has become the standard method for posting spoilers on this forum and means nobody moans at you. You may wish to edit your post accordingly.

SPOILER (highlight to read):

I actually suggested a while back on this forum that it would be a good thing if you needed strong stats to get through FFTD. It means you have a better chance of successfully getting through the campaign with minimal frustration, rather than reaching say, Book 9, and realising you have no chance of completing that book and having to go back to the start of the series.

[Oiseau]

doomy said:

I actually suggested a while back on this forum that it would be a good thing if you needed strong stats to get through FFTD. It means you have a better chance of successfully getting through the campaign with minimal frustration, rather than reaching say, Book 9, and realising you have no chance of completing that book and having to go back to the start of the series.

Then why bother with the random initial stats at all ? If you HAVE to be a tank to make it through the book (or the campaign), isn't it simply unfair to force honest players to fail over and over ? If the book cannot be completed with anything else than a 19/29 character, then the random initial stats should be scrapped and replaced with fixed values.

I would consider this (unplayability) a major flaw in any gamebook. In a revised gamebook which USED to be playable, it's unforgivable.

[Doomy]

The Lone Wolf books have always had those issues, ditto Fighting Fantasy and many others. The LW books suffer more than most because they are designed to be played in series.
On the other hand, being able to improve your stats over the course of the series is one of the most enjoyable aspects of Lone Wolf.
The new FFTD is not so tough it can't be beaten with anything less than 19/29, but you are going to need reasonably decent stats. I got through it pretty easily with 18/27, so it must be possible to win with worse. I reckon a 15/25 character would be able to get through with careful discipline selection, but I doubt a 10/20 character would last long.

[outspaced]

Statistically, however, it is still completeable even with a 10/20 character. The difficulty level isn't higher than the original edition--actually, it could be argued that certain Disciplines, which are chosen rather than generated randomly, make this edition easier than the original; there are more opportunities to use Healing, for example, and more opportunities to pick up Weapons, which correspond to whatever Weaponskill you might have randomly picked--so any complaint should be levelled at the series as a whole, right from 1984. Personally, I think Flight from the Dark is a far more balanced gamebook difficulty-wise than most of the Fighting Fantasy series, or the Grail Quest series, despite how well-liked those books are.

[Wise Eagle]

I agree with the OP. Before Lone Wolf #1 was completeable with any CS, even as low as CS 10 and EP 20. The Gourgaz in this book we have always been able to avoid, and the Vordaks are and were also avoidable.

Now the chances of completing this book with anything less than 16 CS is less than 5%, regardless of which abilities you take and regarldess of which choices you make. (15 CS will leave you at the -7/-8 Combat Ratio and with less EP you need a lot of luck to win it.)

Well, perhaps a bit higher if you use previous experiences from reading the book. There is a 10% chance to get Weaponskill Dagger, and there is one Potion of Alether in the book (but you will have to plan the path for that potion.)

Unless there are changes to make the following books harder Flight from the Dark has changed from becoming the easiest book to the hardest book in the Kai series.

Healing is more or less required in this book now, despite the fact there are many more potions to acquire there are also a lot more dangers. At least that is my experience after having tried to play it through without the discipline.

[outspaced]

Hi Wiseagle

Welcome to the Project Aon boards.

Warning, tharr be SPOILERS ahead. Since this thread has a SPOILERS tag, I haven't bothered to hide these spoilers--YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED:

There are plenty of Kai "masterwork" weapons that bestow a +1 CS bonus in combat to be found in the Kai Monastery, and the increased number of sections without combat mean an increased use of the Kai Healing Discipline. In no way is Flight from the Dark any harder than previously if the optimum Disciplines are chosen, which must include Healing and Mindblast. While the Gourgaz was still a nasty critter, I was only worried by the final combat, which I entered on full EP. Admittedly, I rolled a CS18 with my character, whom I intend to take through all the books as they arrive. But if I was on full EP, that means everyone can be by the time they reach that final twist, which helps an awful lot. Healing is an absolute MUST for all five of the basic Kai books--but then, it always has been, IMHO.

I am really looking forward to receiving Book 2 in a couple fo weeks. My character will hopefully get through without too much trouble.

[Wise Eagle]

Hello outspaced,

There is only one fight that really matters in this book and it is the final fight. The difficulty in the book has increased dramatically by this one fight, because it used to not be there at all.

You are quite likely to survive to the King, both in the new revision and in the old revision. The difficulty difference up to this point is small. More fights but also a lot more healing. Once you get outside the Monastery most of the fights are avoidable.

Assuming you take Healing as one of your disciplines you are very unlikely to die in any previous combat (you will quickly heal up to maximum anyway), and you are more or less guaranteed to have full Endurance when meeting the Helghast.

You cannot use any of your normal weapons against the Helghast, only the dagger can hurt it in combat, so unless you have Weaponskill Dagger, weapon skill will not aid you, nor will a +1 CS on any of your normal weapons. A CS of 18 or 19 will place you on the best CR ratio achiveable.

The weapon section of the book is now updated to say you can only use one weapon in any one combat so you have no choice in weapon here.

And hmm... I found one path to that Potion of Alether and well ... unless there is another path that I did not discover to it then it may just as well not be there. (Reachable from section 28 to 480, but not through 28 to 277.)

[outspaced]

wiseeagle said:

The weapon section of the book is now updated to say you can only use one weapon in any one combat so you have no choice in weapon here.

Ah! Brilliant! I did read through the rules, but I must have blanked this. Finally an official refute to all those dual-wielding rules that people claim Joe was secretly hinting at!

I do see what you mean about the final combat, but it is still statistically doable, even if unlikely, at 10/20. An average player (CS15 EP25) will win 1/3 attempts, for example. And with CS18 I managed to do it, though my EP was rather low by the end.

I think Doomy is right that Joe is doing players a favour by forcing them to generate characters with high stats, since they will want to keep the same character throughout Books 1-20. And some of the later books get very mean indeed. Still, any character that now survives Book 1 shouldn't have too much trouble getting through to the end of Book 5.

[Wise Eagle]

I think chances are somewhere around the following:

CS 18 or 19. Better than 50% chance of success. Probably 3/4 or better chance.
CS 16 or 17. About 50% chance of success.
CS 14 or 15. Less than 50% chance of success. Probably 1/4 or less chance. (I'm a bit more pessimistic than you on the chances here. The -7/-8 CR is very unfavorable to Lone Wolf. Still, I'd rate the chance to higher than 10% but not as high as 33%.)

Chances somewhat dependent on Endurance score as well. There is a couple of items that increase Endurance in the game.

CS 13 or lower... You will spend a LOT of time reading through the book or will need to be very very lucky.

For the rest of the book. A wise choice of disciplines and a wise choice of path (suited to your disciplines) will see you to the king 4/5 of the time.

[Doomy]

New, fairly huge spoilers below:

Grand Master Brave Blade is shown to be dual-wielding in his last stand at the Monastery - perhaps this means we can expect dual-wielding to be officially incorporated into Grand Weaponmastery. This would make sense to me. In the old books, Grand Weaponmastery is almost useless if you've already completed the Magnakai series, as it grants just one measly point of CS. Remember the Weaponmastery bonus becomes 4 points at Scion-Kai rank.
Even if the rules don't explicitly allow for dual-wielding Grand Masters I daresay a lot of players will cite this example as justification for dual-wielding their way through Ixia when the time comes.

[Enas]

Thanks for the opinions (and the teaching about spoilers :-) )

I don´t think it is a bad thing to force players to play a 19/29 or closely similar Lone Wolf to avoid frustration in Books 9/11/17/whichever. I just think it should be explicitly stated as such and the whole "Random Generation" tossed overboard for a static System (like most modern RPGs use anyway... rolling stats was abandoned largely since GURPS was introduced )

Regards
Enas

[Wise Eagle]

I don't think weaponmastery will see a change in the books. It already gives two very desirable things:
- Permits mastery of all weapons and not just one.
- Permits mastery of ranged weapons like the bow.

If you selected Weaponskill in for example Spear, Mace, or Quarterstaff in the Kai series you would likely be quite keen in upgrading Weaponskill to Weaponmastery.

As for changes in Grand Waeponmastery on basis of one person who is at most Grand Master, I think it is unlikely.

[Doomy]

Yeah, Weaponmastery is useful. Unlike Weaponskill, it lets you choose which weapons grant bonuses (so you get maximum benefit from the Sommerswerd) and makes you good at archery. It's always one of my starting Magnakai Disciplines, mainly because you need it to have any real chance of getting the Silver Bow of Duadon.
Grand Weaponmastery is not so good. Compare the benefit of upgrading from Weaponmastery to Grand Weaponmastery against the difference between Psi-surge and Kai-surge.

[Wise Eagle]

Perhaps comparison is better made for the New Order series where you do not have the previous upgrade from the books.

Then you have a +5 CS for Grand weaponmastery and you have +8 CS but -1 EP for Kai surge and +4 CS for Mindblast, and the big downer that many of the most powerful enemies are immune.