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Post by Ehlonna on Jan 12, 2006 2:58:51 GMT
I'm wondering how we could go about getting permission to use the books in our online text game that we are making. I am attracted to this setting beyond any other. I finally played through one of the books generously donated by the author and put on this webpage, and after I was done, I was really shocked by how taken in I was. I don't remember ever seeing an idea like this, and it was actually more fun than I thought it would be! I am more sure than ever that this setting would make a great MUD, especially one done with entirely original code. Well, the other owner/head coder was willing to do something neat to start, perhaps to obtain permission to put these books into the MUD form, so that people could play them word for word, in that format. Basically, we would copy&paste the text with permission, and integrate the inventory, statistics, random number rolling, and everything else into one place! This would only be a side project and fun option for people who would visit us, and separate from the MUD game itself (which is going to be an absolutely vast undertaking, but we need at least someone very familiar with the setting to visit us to at least talk for a few minutes and answer some questions!! Otherwise, we will have to cancel this idea. ) In any case, we can't and won't do anything without permission. We don't want to steal anything! We will never profit from any of this at all (rather, it costs him money to host it and everything, we don't even do donations). Is there a more "busy" Lone Wolf message board or community than here? This looks great but I'm really eager right now to learn some more and get some answers to questions we have for building the MUD, and for hopeful permission to do these things! Please contact me at cheryl@winds-of-change.org or visit us using a MUD or telnet client at windsofchange.xs4all.nl 4000 You won't see any Lone Wolf stuff there, since we haven't gotten permission or any word yet, but just create a character and come on in. If you're interested in seeing a text game, ultra realistic and totally true in every respect to the books, huge and open, please please someone at least pay us a visit! There's no obligation to become an immortal or lock yourself into doing anything at all if you don't want to. We'd just like to know that there's some interest and possibility for us to do this, otherwise we won't go ahead with it.
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Post by Dusk Fox on Jan 12, 2006 5:31:02 GMT
I made an account and logged on, but the two staffbits were idle, so I headed out. I may turn up again, when I have time.
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Post by Al on Jan 12, 2006 9:17:48 GMT
Is there a more "busy" Lone Wolf message board or community than here? you can try the mongoose publishing boards or the fan site www.towerofthesun.com (if you like lone wolf, you will like that as it is based around the lone wolf RPG) Al
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Post by Desert Lynx on Jan 12, 2006 16:56:04 GMT
The only problem that I can see is that we don't have license to use of the text on sites other than Project Aon. So we don't have the legal right to give you the go ahead.
However, in my untrained legal opinion, if you simply base the MUD in the world of Magnamund without actually using the text, all the while giving due credit to Joe Dever, I don't see a problem with that. Joe Dever has said as much himself about Lone Wolf websites. Acknowledge his copyrights and trademarks, and you're good.
I'll send this reply to your email address as well.
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Post by Ehlonna on Jan 17, 2006 0:45:07 GMT
Thanks for the answers On the MUD, I am there almost every day, and the other owner is there every day barring vacation or something. What about the Lone Wolf RPG book? I have bought that for source material, and I'm wondering whether it is legal to use any of that content. I read that it was based off of the owner, Joe Dever's own notes. I don't mean stealing text wholesale, I just mean using it as a reference to put information about countries and other things that might not be in the original books by Mr. Dever. One area we could use help, is I read about conflicts between Mr. Dever's content and the newer RPG book. I would normally prefer that we go with the original content where such a conflict exists, but unfortunately nobody in our MUD has the knowledge of the world to know which is which! If I see a fact in the RPG book I would assume it is true, not knowing it is actually a contradiction of the original material! I have been reading/playing through these books, I have gotten through 4 of them now, and learning more. They are really a lot of fun, the world is richly detailed and I think would make a fantastic game setting!
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Post by Zipp on Jan 17, 2006 2:04:10 GMT
Thanks for the answers On the MUD, I am there almost every day, and the other owner is there every day barring vacation or something. What about the Lone Wolf RPG book? I have bought that for source material, and I'm wondering whether it is legal to use any of that content. I read that it was based off of the owner, Joe Dever's own notes. I don't mean stealing text wholesale, I just mean using it as a reference to put information about countries and other things that might not be in the original books by Mr. Dever. Dear Ehlonna, The world information in the RPG is not copyrighted any more than any of Joe Dever's stuff is, and would fall under the same jurisdiction. So, yeah, if you can use the stuff from his books, than you can use the stuff from the RPG. As for the world being a great place for a fantasy game, well, many have thought so. Unfortunately, the amount of work it takes to make a game has stopped most somewhere north of creating their first town/chapter/location. Hopefully you make it further in your attempt. Good luck!
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Post by Ehlonna on Jan 17, 2006 2:11:19 GMT
We need help. If people really want this to happen, a huge amount of the work is already done. The foundation is already laid, the tough part is almost done. Someone has already taken the dreaded first step of actually getting it started! We just need Lone Wolf people to help us, those who know more about it! I am still a newcomer! It's not programming help, though that's great. It's more to help us just by talking to us some about Lone Wolf setting and stuff. We're not like other people who make online games. The insane level of detail and realism would probably blow you away. This isn't just another group of people making one of a million different MUDs out there. We're exceptionally different, simply because of the ultra-realistic approach. Imagine being able to explore the Lone Wolf world and talk to ANYONE, even ordinary nobodies on the street. Beggers in Ragadorn. We'll make it so you have options of what to say or do with them, even ordinary NPCs will have personality profiles. This is a world we can make come alive like no other text game makers we have seen, we just need more! As it stands, if we can't get Lone Wolf people to assist, everyone wishes to stick with the awful Wheel of Time setting. Please, please do it for me! I HATE Wheel of Time!! ;D
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Post by Zipp on Jan 17, 2006 4:02:28 GMT
Very well Ehlonna, here's what I can give you: 1) First, always post any questions here 2) Sign up and post those same questions at Tower of the Sun, as well as the details of your project. There are many knowledgeable Lone Wolf fans who post there, but don't check this site. Tower of the Sun is located at: www.towerofthesun.com/lonewolf/index.php Tower of the Sun also has something called the Manual of the Kai, which is an encyclepedia of things Lone Wolf, put together by the fans. It is a great resource, though it is somewhat incomplete. Many things are there, and more entries are added every month, but there are probably things we missed. In that way, we can work together with you to flesh it out. If you see something that's not in there, that you're curious about, let us know. We'll add it. 3) I will make my email address available to you. Check your instant messages. I'm not the most knowledgeable Lone Wolf fan, but I do know a lot, I have all the books, and if it's about the first five books, I've read them about twenty times. I am less knowledgable about the books past 9, as I haven't read them in years. I'll answer what questions I can, though, and will point you to places that hold the answers I cannot give.
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Post by Ehlonna on Jan 18, 2006 15:07:34 GMT
By the way to answer a question that I was asked, asking for help does not mean programmers! Though that would be great that's not really expected. Some of the biggest contributers to a MUD don't know anything about programming, they help by contributing ideas, maybe writing help files on the setting, and so on. For example, what will people see when they type "help sommerlund"? What would the best ways to handle NPCs, or the gameworld economy? What about languages? Is there a worldwide common speak of sorts? I've learned so far about Vassagonian and Dark Tongue and Sommlending, but up until now I thought Lone Wolf just spoke "common". Did the Durenor people I saw in book 2 speak Sommlending also, and who else does? What about accents in speach? I've had the idea of, if you have the Camaflouge discipline, you will be able to speak a language you know normally. Otherwise, speaking a non-native language on your character, others native to that language will see Ehlonna says in accented Vassagonian, "blah blah" Players will know I'm not Vassagonian, and we'll also code NPCs to recognize it also. This will come into play when trying to be disguised or not attract attention, and might sometimes affect how merchants will interact with you, and penalize a lot of things. However it seems from book 5 that the Camaflouge discipline will affect this, so if I speak Vassagonian as a Kai Lord with Camaflouge it will show Ehlonna says, "blah blah" And they won't be able to use this to uncover me. of course I'm guessing someone from Durenor who also speaks Vassagonian, might not know enough to recognize the bad accent? Would that be true? I'm not good with these things. So I'm undercover in a Vassagonian market talking to a merchant, and I don't have the Camaflouge discipline, here's something how it might look? Sommlending non-speaker of Vassagonian sees Ehlonna says something in a language unknown to you. Sommlending who also speaks Vassagonian sees Ehlonna says in Vassagonian, "stuff" Vassagonian sees Ehlonna says in accented Vassagonian, "stuff" Or should the Sommlending who speaks Vassagonian also recognize the accent? Should we base it on having multiple levels of proficiency with a language? Like, a Sommlending with 1 in Vassagonian may not see the accent, but a Sommlending with 2 in Vassagonian would? Or..?? What is the best way to handle this?
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Post by Zipp on Jan 18, 2006 18:42:08 GMT
Typing "Help Sommerlund" should reply with a message along the lines of "good luck" ^_^
Economy should be kept fairly simple. In Magnamund, people are paid for their deeds in the currency of that land, and all currencies have a value relating to the Gold Crown (I believe this is listed correctly in the RPG book, page 105). There are three main ways to get paid:
1) Salary 2) Trade 3) Deeds
Salary is the pay you will recieve by working for someone, for a set pay, usually paid per week or monthly.
Trade is what you will get paid in exchange for goods, whether you own a shop and are selling items, or are an adventurer selling off your weapons and armors.
Deeds is the title I have given to the money you recieve for doing 'deeds' for people. For instance, a man asks you to slay a group of giaks that have been camping near his fields. You do so, and in return he pays you several gold crowns (though then there's the question of whether you will take a poor farmer's only crowns, that's beyond economy).
Many deeds in Magnamund are rewarded with practical gifts of equipment or a place to stay the night, unless the rewarder is a noble or man of some riches, in which case they generally pefer to use money as payment.
I'll answer the camouflage question later, I'm gonna be late for class. Others, feel free to jump in here and agree, disagree, or add your own views.
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Post by Zipp on Jan 18, 2006 22:05:26 GMT
Zipp here to give the second part of my answer:
Dialect is an interesting subject in Magnamund. Of course in the gamebooks we don't see much dialect, other than "get the kai lord," occasionally spoken in Giak. Which isn't a slight on the books, the fact that they can be so involving without dialouge is actually quite amazing. But I digress.
Dialect in Magnamund I believe can be broken into four main catagories:
1) North Speak 2) Southernath 3) Dark Tongue (in which I'm including Giak, which is actually a seperate tongue)
This is easy to understand if you consider that the three main areas of Magnamund are Northern, Southern, and the Darklands.
North Magnamund is where the majority of the Lone Wolf gamebooks take place. I believe I am correct in saying that every area of Northern Magnamund (including Kalte and Ixia) has been covered at some point or another in the gamebooks, some more so than others. Through this we can see that most every race has its own dialect, but that many people in each race also speak North Speak. It is, essentially, common speak, and can probably be said to be equivalent to English in its useage.
As for how it actually sounds, nothing is ever referred to. Few people went into such details with their language as did Tolkein. North Speak was a derivative of Sommat, spoken by the Sommlending. I don't know which race (on Earth) the Sommlending are based off of, though there have been genealogy discussions on this site before. Outspaced would probably know. When you figure that out, than you can probably say what Sommat is based off of. I'm guessing English. Anyways, I digress again (I like that word).
North Speak is certainly known by a large percentage of the Northern Magnamund population. Even the Darkland forces know it (the Drakkarim defenitely understand it, and the Darklords actually talks to Lone Wolf in North Speak). The history behind this is probably trade related. Or we can go even further back. Here's how I see it:
The Sommlending arrive in Magnamund. At that time, most people are speaking tribal languages. The Sommlending essential unite the tribes and breed with them, and become the rulers of the society they set up. Thus, Sommat as a language becomes used. When mixed with the local dialects and tribal languages, this becomes North Speak. The Sommlending Nobles (which religiously includes the Kai Lords) still learn Sommat, much as the Japanese Emperor and court nobles spoke "Original Japanese" which was nearly unintelligable to the common population.
Anyways, Sommerlund as we know is a bustling center of trade, and as we also know, language tends to spread along with trade. It makes sense that other nations would learn North Speak in order to keep up trading relations. And there you have the current situation.
Now, South Speak probably originated in much the same manner, but I know less of their history. I could hazard a guess that Southernath is based off of the Shianti language, who were as great a presence in the South as the Sommlending were in the North. However, before I gave you a defenite answer on the southern language situation, I would need to do some more research. The RPG lists the alphabet as Naarosh, but as to where that came from, I have no idea.
Finally we come to the Dark Spawn and their language. The Dark language is passed down by Naar personally. It is his language. The Darklords and many of their minions speak it, especially the higher ranking ones, such as Nadziranim and the Xaghash. All Dark Creatures with the ability to understand language speak and understand Giak. It is the main language of the dark spawn, developed out of the military society of the giaks. Of course, the Drakkarim also have their own language, Drakkar, but I believe it is only spoken by them and the Darklords (when needed), and thus isn't a 'main' language.
Give me a moment, and then I'll get on to the rest of your question.
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Post by Zipp on Jan 18, 2006 22:58:53 GMT
Now, finally, to answer your question. Now that you have a bit of the history, it is easier to answer. Keep in mind that North Magnamund is everything north of the Tentarias, while Southern Magnamund is all that is south of that great river.
I think for each normal NPC, you have to assume they know their races' language (summarized very well in the RPG) as well as an accented version of the common speak of that part of Magnamund. These would be their beginning languages. For Northerners, it is North Speak. For Southerners, it is Southernath. For Dark Forces, it would be Giak.
Then, some NPCs (adventurers, nobles, well travelled merchants, scholars, etc.) would know more languages in addition to their two 'beginning languages.' Obviously, the main languages would be more useful to know as secondary languages. For instance, Southernath is probably more useful than knowing Telchoi, or the tongue of the Ice Barbarians.
Finally, we'll talk about interaction between these languages. For this, you can assume that a character either understands what is being said, or doesn't. And if they understand it, is it spoken with an accent. If you want to get more in depth with it, you could have levels of learning, in which as you learn more of the language, more words become known to you. Thus, a player with no levels in Vassa overhearing a Vassan guard speaking to his comrade will see:
The guards speak together in Vassa.
If he has one level in Vassan, he would hear instead:
"Roth are reticent noct. Hertio because we killed gaal et comradarie."
A player with level two (max) would hear:
"The fish are still tonight. Perhaps because we killed so many of their comrades."
To do that you'd have to create the language for your own benefit, to keep translations consistent, and then program each conversation in a language other than common to have translations of differing levels (as seen above). This would make language more realistic and also more useful. If you can understand what the guards outside your jail cell are saying, and can speak back, that's a nice ability.
As for the ability of Camouflage, it is true that at both the Kai and Magnakai levels, it is mentioned as being able to help with dialect.
First off, I would advise that on your first programming of the game, you don't include Magnakai abilities. Fix all the bugs with the regular abilities first, and then move on to the Magnakai when you've got your game underway. It takes many years to learn the Magnakai abilities, besides, so that shouldn't be something for beginning players anyways.
Then, I would say that camouflage would disguise all traces of accents. Also, anyone with the max level in a language would have no accent, either.
As for your example, let me try to answer it with one of my own illustrating how this should work. Ehlonna, a Kai Lord, is in the company of Sir Victor, a Sommlending Knight, and Regalia, a sorcerous of the Crystal Star. They are in Vassagonia, talking to a merchant. Ehlonna has 1 level in Vassa and does not have the ability of camouflage. Sir Victor has none. Regalia has 2 levels (max) in Vassa. The Merchant, of course, has Vassa as a native language (the equivalent of max levels).
The Merchant says in Vassa: I would buy your shield, sir knight, for a fine price.
Ehlonna sees on his screen: I would presca don shield , resta falorian, for a radatia priece."
Sir Victor sees on his screen: The merchant says something in Vassa
Regalia sees on her screen: I would buy your shield, sir knight, for a fine price.
Ehlonna replies in poor and accented Vassa: "Do you know how to speak North Speak?"
Sir Victor sees on his screen: Ehlonna says something in Vassa.
Regalia sees on her screen: Ehlonna says in poor and accented Vassa "Do you know how to speak North Speak?"
The Merchant replies in North Speak: "Yes, yes, learned it as a child."
They all see on their respective screens: The merchant says "Yes, yes, learned it as a child"
I hope all that answers your question and gives you more to think about besides.
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Post by Zipp on Jan 26, 2006 20:35:36 GMT
Did you get all of this, Ehlonna? How's the project coming?
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Post by Ehlonna on Feb 2, 2006 3:24:40 GMT
Sorry. Thank you for the great reply!! But I have been on a vacation for a weekend+ a few days so I haven't gotten to answer yet. Right now, we are transitioning fully to the new, from scratch code base thing, and ironing out a few last missing details. There really is a lot to a MUD even a simple one, and ours is far from simple!
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Post by Zipp on Feb 2, 2006 20:08:35 GMT
Well, if you ever need more information, just ask me here or email me. I'll tell you what I know, and look up what I don't know.
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