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Post by kaikaj on Nov 29, 2006 19:19:35 GMT
Okay, this is an idea I have been exciting myself with of late. An adventure gamebook where you play as a Helghast, on a shadowy mission in the heart of magnamund. I was thinking of setting it during the 8 year period Lone Wolf is away in the Dazarian plane. I will release a plot preview when it is more ready. I have already made the rules, disciplines and starting equipment, and have begun to sketch out the plot, which begins with Gnaag summoning you to his throne room in Helgdad. What I wil reallyl need is a bunch of specialist knowlege about the Helghast/Darklords/Helgedad. For example - what are the Darklord factions? Do Helghasts eat? I'm guessing a lot of this type of information will be things like the Mongoose RPG books, but I don't have any of them. If I use this thread to post a bunch of questions, can you guys help me? Here's a small taster of how I am thinking of modifying combat: Firstly: Strangulation is the method of dispatching enemies preferred by Helghast when unarmed (you may opt to fight unarmed in any combat even if you have a weapon, but remember to subtract 4 from your CS for every turn this is attempted). If your opponent loses more EP than you in any round of combat, then they are being strangled. Keep fighting as though you are unarmed, but you ignore loses to yourself until you roll a 1, 2, or 3. When this happens, the enemy has broken free – lose your EP as normal and continue fighting as you wish. Secondly: Helghast cannot be killed by conventional weapons or wounds. For this reason, you are not killed if you EP drops below 0 if you are injured by non-magical means, and you may restore 2 EP for every paragraph that you visit that does not involve combat. However, whilst your EP is 0 or below, your Combat Skill is reduced by 2. You are also very fragile whilst in such a state – so any magically-sustained loss of EP which results in you having 0 EP or less kills you. Magically-sustained wounds are marked as MagicWounds on your adventure sheet. They subtract from your initial EP value, and do not recover by your healing powers, though they may be recovered by other means. Let me know what you think...
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Post by Zipp on Nov 30, 2006 2:26:38 GMT
I'll comment on rules when I see more of them, though my advice now would be to do away with a combat system all together. Helghasts are creatures that either win their fights (if they encounter someone without magical weapons) or potentially lose them (if their opponent has magical weapons).
My point is, unless you plan on having a lot of guys running around with magical weapons, the Helghast is never going to lose a fight. Helghasts are masters of disguise, infiltration, and cunning. A gamebook based on them should be more choice and random number oriented than combative.
I don't know much about Helgedad at all, and only basic information on Darklords, but my knowledge about Helghasts is extensive.
I can answer one of your questions right away. Being undead, Helghasts do not eat, and do not like to eat even in disguise. I would imagine that this is either because their undead bodies cannot process the food, or because food is a wholesome product (and they are in every way abominations). Helghasts can eat, however, and will do so if neccesary to maintain their disguise. I do not know if eating has later ramifications, but I would imagine they must later vomit the food back up. This may do small damage to their systems, and could defenitely cause suspicion if found out.
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Post by kaikaj on Nov 30, 2006 12:43:58 GMT
Thank you, Zipp. And Helghast can be killed by magical spells too? Holy water?
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Post by beowuuf on Nov 30, 2006 15:08:56 GMT
I think this helghast book is a very good idea, and do think Zipp's uiggestion for non-combat sneakiness is the way to go. Perhaps the helghast has a value for health which can be reduced by magic, spells, etc, but there is no combat as such.
Combat, if it has to happen, is instead similar to how the gourgaz fight is - you decide on attack methods (mental assault, strangling, frontal attack, grab limb, corner, etc) and you have a mini-adventure merely catchign your prey without beign hurt, or more likely without them escaping.
As a helghast death would nto be the worst thing that could happen, failign your mission by being discovered or captured or letting the target escape (hence torture by BCS or by the darklords) beign the ends more likely
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Post by Wolfus on Nov 30, 2006 16:34:43 GMT
Maybe he should infiltrate Brotherhood of Crystal Star, there are many opportunities to get revealed and/or killed.
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Post by kaikaj on Nov 30, 2006 16:52:57 GMT
Yeah, I was completely going for an infiltration stylee adventure. Combat will be less numerous than with Lone Wolf, but I've decided it will feature. The plot as it stands has a significant amount of plausible magical threats peppered throughout, not in such a way that he's just bumping into random magic-axe wielding bandits or anything.
I like the idea of failing your mission as being your demise. The dark forces are at times their own worst enemy.
And the Brotherhood of the Crystal Star really torture their captives? Harsh.
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Post by adunaphel on Nov 30, 2006 18:37:43 GMT
I've always had a few questions about Helghast that Joe never really answered...
What happens if I set a helghast on fire? The whole immunity to everything except magic suggests that it would be fine, but jeez...
On the same note, what happens if I douse it with acid, etc?
What are the exact mechanics of taking a swing at one with a regular weapon? Does it just bounce off? I always got the feeling that it connected just as it would with a regular enemy (big meaty thunk, actually penetrates the body), but the wound sorta gels together as soon as you make it...kinda like trying to cut water.
Do Helghast have the same "scanning for the enemy" ability that Vordaks use? We never see them use it, but then we've never had an opportunity to run/hide from one, either.
Why do they always revert to "scary looking" mode before attacking? Did Joe include this just to build suspense? This is a mechanic that I think could really be played around with during the adventure. In the RPG, there is a class called the Dark Cultist that can transform into a helghast when it reaches level 20, but the kicker is that the Cultist only gets the helghast bonuses when they are actually in helghast form. Is it possible that helghast lose their supernatural powers when in human form? This would be a very cool mechanic to include in your book, as it would make normal combat dangerous again; in any type of infiltration mission, you're going to want to stay in human form as long as possible. This would also explain why helghast always transform before attacking Lone Wolf.
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Post by Zipp on Dec 1, 2006 5:50:28 GMT
Kaikaj: Helghast can be hurt by spells and holy water. Any undead or evil creature is harmed by it. Though "evil" is a fairly relative term here. I would say direct enemies of Kai can be harmed by it. I am again going to suggest doing away with combat. Beowuuf's idea of having health points that are reduced by making bad choices is a good one, but let me put it to you this way: First off, if you finish this adventure and want to write another, you'll have to set it in another place where everyone knows magic, or you run into the problem of combat being pointless. And forgetting that, even in your current mission, you have to assume that if you are discovered to be a Helghast while in the Brotherhood's own folds, your death will be swift. This isn't like sneaking around a huge fortress city of Kaag where the troops are basically wandering monsters. This is a human establishment where everyone works closely with each other. The Helghast's advantage will be in one hit kills, like strangling someone to death in the medieval lavotories or stabbing them in their sleep. Letting a wizard get off a single one of their very disruptive and noticeable spells could alert everyone to your presence. I suggest having only a couple combative situations. For instance, if your mission is to kill the Guildmaster and assume his place, then obviously the battle between you two will have to be fought. But giving more than a few combats to the book does the creature a disservice, in my opinion. adunaphel: Here's the answers to your questions. Setting a helghast on fire will have a detrimental effect on it, but will not kill it. I'll put it this way. They do not like being set on fire (who does, really?), but it will not hesitate to continue their attack while on fire. In fact this can prove detrimental to anyone they grasp, as that person has a chance of also being set on fire. This is the golden rule: Helghasts can only be killed by magic. Is it magical acid? Unless it is, the Helghast will lose some skin cells, but ultimately will not be destroyed. It would probably destroy their disguise, however. And if it wasn't a Helghast... oops. Like cutting water, that was a good way to put it. The blade passes connects, but no damage is done. Bouncing off does not occur. You have an oppurtunity to hide from one in my upcoming Helghast fight and I didn't give it the ability. If I recall correctly, the Vordak that uses that ability is being helped with some sort of item that enhances psychic ability. Otherwise, I would assume the Helghast is able to sense the presence of a truly strong psychic presence, because they do have psychic ability, but that they are not normally able to immediately pick someone out of hiding with their sixth sense alone. However, they have an excellent sense of smell and hearing that can easily root out anyone without a camouflage ability that they are trying to find. I believe you have answered this yourself in the part I didn't quote. I think Helghasts have to revert to their undead form in order to use their abilities This is probably to heighten their disguise. Shaking hands with a Helghast would give away their identity otherwise. When a helghast goes into disguise, it is really shape shifting, and it gains the physical attributes of the one it is disguised as. This does not include abilities like a Kai Lord's disciplines or a Brother mage's spells, though the Helghast may be able to learn them if there are no restrictions to it doing so. It could not learn the abilities of a Kai Lord, as these are given by Kai himself, and only to those Good of soul. It could learn to mimic them, however. Note that this does not mean a Helghast has to transform to kill. An old guildmaster can stab someone in their sleep just as easily as a minion of darkness can.
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Post by beowuuf on Dec 1, 2006 8:17:33 GMT
Indeed, genuine combat should be a minimum - I'd hate to keep having to play an epic battle like Zipp's just to take out a stableboy or witness!
I think the fear of discovery is one of the best frights - if combat is just the dice mechanics of being killed you don't really think too much passed them - if the results of not making a death clean enough or fast enough is discovery, and you aren't sure if someone saw you, or what a victim who escapes will report, that stays with you and means the combat mattered
I'm actually quite into seeign what you will do here - some interesting ideas present themselves for choices. You begin to suspect a brother does not trust you. Do you hold your nerve that night, do you go kill him risking blowing your cover or creating a defite mystery, do you throw suspicion off of you by taking someone else's place or do you frame him!
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Post by kaikaj on Dec 2, 2006 13:37:35 GMT
Thanks everyone for input Ok, question bombardment time. How conversational could a Helghast be? Would a Helghast ride a Kraan to get somewhere? (i.e. from Helgedad) Where do Helghast come from? (I'd really like them to be born from a sticky/crusty sac, a bit like the Uruk Hai from LoTR). Would a Helghast have any sense of command over dark underlings? (I'm guessing there was something like a squad going onwith the Helghast and the Szalls in FotW). Do Helghasts serve individual Darklords like Giaks? Could they be used in inter-darklord power struggles? Who were the main contestents to Gnaag's power at the time? One thing to bear in mind is that the Helghast do sometimes actually go in for all out combat, and are prepared to join forces with other Helghast for certain missions. Remember that in FotW a ggroup of 6 Helghast launch a very unsubtle attack on you and Rhygar's men (in think in broad daylight). Clearly, this mission was a kind of commando assault aimed at intercepting Lone Wolf, but it strikes me that they would also be extremely effective in general warfare too...potentially a weapon of mass destruction against a magic-less foe.
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Post by adunaphel on Dec 2, 2006 17:33:50 GMT
How conversational could a Helghast be?
I'd say as conversational as you want them to be. Most of the heghast Lone Wolf runs into aren't very talkative, but this may be simply because they're trying to assassinate him. In an undercover spy type helghast, being good with words would be a definite asset -- even more so if they perfected regional vernacular, accent, etc.
Would a Helghast ride a Kraan to get somewhere? (i.e. from Helgedad)
Depends on where he's going. If he's going from Helgedad to Kaag or something, I'd see no reason not to use a kraan. Obviously it wouldn't ride one anywhere in an infiltration mission, as kraan are fairly conspicuous. Speaking of animals, it may be iteresting if animals could sense a helghast's true nature, i.e. horses are skittish around them, cats hiss, dogs whimper, etc.
Where do Helghast come from? (I'd really like them to be born from a sticky/crusty sac, a bit like the Uruk Hai from LoTR).
The only thing we really know about the birthing process of helghast is that it is performed in the dungeons of helgedad (although I would assume that any darkland city-fortress could do it.) There is a scene in The Plauge Lords of Ruel where the druids are scooping Vazhag (I think thats how it's spelled) out of big vats with long nets, so it may be similar. Still, one would think that helghast are more complex to breed than normal giaks, etc, so I personally like your idea of them being individually created.
Would a Helghast have any sense of command over dark underlings? (I'm guessing there was something like a squad going onwith the Helghast and the Szalls in FotW).
In Fire on the Water, we're told that helghast are, "fell captains of the darklords", meaning they'd have no problem ordering other lesser spawn around. Still, it seems that most helghast are used more as individual assassins and spies than they are officers.
Do Helghasts serve individual Darklords like Giaks? Could they be used in inter-darklord power struggles?
Yes and yes. Darklords are essentially chaotic evil individuals, meaning that every one of them would off his own grandmother if it suited them.
Who were the main contestents to Gnaag's power at the time? All his main contestants (Haakon, Gurch, Unc) wound up dead. We know that he is allied with Taktaal, so it may be safe to assume that he doesn't like Taktaal's enemies (Ghanesh). Remember my above statement, though...if Gnaag leaves himself open, anyone who thinks he can accomplish it will attempt to take him down. I'd say that no one individual darklord would attempt to take out the Archlord (the Archlord technically has power over all the rest of the darklords, and the very fact that he's Archlord means he's the most powerful out of all of them), but if several of them were to ally themselves...
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Post by Zipp on Dec 2, 2006 20:43:55 GMT
I have some things too add to adunphel's responses.
On the issue of conversation:
Helghasts can be excellent at everything from bar talk to discourse as long as it's what the mission calls for. Keep in mind that Helghasts are extremely inconspicious. No normal person could see through their disguise unless they knew the other intimately (and even then it could be difficult). It's never covered in the books, but Helghasts can do anything their impersonated body can do. They can have sex, they can eat food, etc.
They can't bear children, and they probably can't keep their food down, as mentioned earlier, though even this is debatable (even the ability to bear children could lead to some disturbing situations).
On origins: It's not really covered. The only thing that's stated is that they are better versions of Vordaks. Like, Vordak Mach II. So the process may be somewhat similar. I do know that a Helghast is essentially dark power locked into the physical plane of existence. So whatever process does that...
On command: Just a comment on your question. The szalls in FotW were not under that Helghast's command. They were trying to kill the creature and actively try to stop Lone Wolf from freeing it. They flee when the Helghast is freed from the power of the spear. Szalls don't belong to the Darklords.
I think they are the descendants of giaks who made it out of captivity and bred in the wild, though I could be wrong about that.
And finally, on ganging up and its relevance to your gamebook: You mention the fight against Ryhgar's men. I would assume a similar fight in your gamebook would not actually be a combat, but rather a description of how you slaughter the men. Because that is what would happen. It's like when Lone Wolf meets giaks in the GM series. It doesn't even bother with making you fight.
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Post by adunaphel on Dec 3, 2006 0:46:14 GMT
After re-reading some of the helghast sections in the books, I'm now of the belief that we're overestimating a helghast's immunity; Joe routinely says that they're unaffected by "normal weapons", but doesn't say anything about them "only being harmed by magic":
Normal weapons cannot harm it and it is immune to Mindblast. You can only wound it in combat with the Magical Spear. Fire on the Water, Section 106
Give no quarter,' cries the Lord-lieutenant as he attacks the cloaked staff-bearer. His sword slices clean through the robed stranger but he remains unharmed. You suddenly realize why he does not bleed. He and his sinister companions are Helghast, fell captains of the Darklords. They have the ability to adopt human form but are invulnerable to normal weapons. Fire on the Water, Section 69
This deadly, shape-changing servant of the Darklords cannot be killed with a normal weapon. Your only hope of defeating it is to fight it using Paido's sword, a blade forged by the Elder Magi in the furnaces of Elzian. The Jungle of Horrors, Section 183
As you raise your enchanted weapon, the Helghast shrieks in alarm as it recognizes the power you wield. Immediately it breaks off its advance and staggers back towards the bridge, desperate to flee its nemesis. Determinedly you chase after this evil being and, as it reaches the drawbridge, you come to within a sword's length of its skull.
'Die, foul spawn!' you cry, and with one fell sweep of your arm, you send the creature tumbling from the bridge to be consumed by the hungry flames below. The Captives of Kaag, section 330. This one also suggests that fire and other "consuming" substances that can totally destroy its body (powerful acids and bases, bolts of lightning, etc) can kill them.
The Helghast's feral eyes blaze brightly and talons spring from its fingers as, with one last cry, it launches itself towards your chest. The Captives of Kaag, Section 48. This one was interesting to me, as I never really realized that helghast have retractable claws.
Notice that none of the sections say that they can only be harmed by magic -- just that normal weapons don't work...this would make them quite a bit more vunerable to a mob of angry peasants armed with kerosene and torches. =)
Honestly, I think this makes the helghast a far more believable creature...if they could ONLY be harmed by magic, the Darklords would have easily taken over Magnamund with an undestroyable army of helghast by now.
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Post by Zipp on Dec 3, 2006 1:42:21 GMT
Notice that none of the sections say that they can only be harmed by magic -- just that normal weapons don't work...this would make them quite a bit more vunerable to a mob of angry peasants armed with kerosene and torches. =) Honestly, I think this makes the helghast a far more believable creature...if they could ONLY be harmed by magic, the Darklords would have easily taken over Magnamund with an undestroyable army of helghast by now. I must entirely disagree with you. The Darklords almost DID take over all Magnamund with the Helghasts. Thus the Helghast wars in 3520. During these wars they are all but unstoppable. Only the Elder Magi and the Brotherhood of the Crystal Star provide any real resistance, being mages. The only things that defeat the Helghasts is that the Brotherhood of the Crystal Star develops a spell that can see through their disguise, there is an increase in the forging of magical weapons (almost all the magical weapons in Lone Wolf come from this period), and Kai creates the Sommerswerd, which decimates the Helghast armies. In 3550, the Helghast wars end, but many remanants of the wars remain. Most notably, there are still Helghasts in high political positions throughout Magnamund. The Helghast remains one of the deadliest creations of Naar, rivaling even the Darklords (which can't infiltrate human society).
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Post by adunaphel on Dec 3, 2006 3:20:18 GMT
The Helghast War is another case of good triumphing because evil is terminally stupid...
Think about it. Vashna has an army of creatures that can adopt human form and are immune to conventional, unenchanted weaponry. The only people standing in his way are the Brotherhood of the Crystal Star and the Elder Magi, and for some reason, Vashna doesn't infiltrate Toran and Elzian with hundreds of helghast ordered to completely eradicate each organization in one massive blitzkrieg. It would have taken both orders completely by surprise, as you can't go about detecting that which you don't know exists. I don't see either group being more numerous that the Kai during Zagarna's invasion, and he managed to kill all save ONE in a matter of minutes with lowly Giaks. No magic users means no magical weapons, and you can only kill so many Helghast with one singe Sommerswerd.
For some reason, Vashna chooses not to do this
In any case, we aren't completely in disagreement. Our only real discrepancies have to do with what can kill a Helghast, and even a helghast that is vulnerable to fire (that passage from Captives of Kaag makes it fairly clear that they aren't fireproof) is a pretty damn mean opponent.
__________
(taken from the Lone Wolf RPG rulebook, excerpt from the section detailing the Helghast War)
"...the first of these (powers) is a virtual immunity to any normal weapon. Only magic and enchanted weapons can do them significant harm..."
Key words being virtual immunity to normal weapons and only magical weapons can deal them significant harm. Later in the Bestiary section, we learn that a helghast has damage reduction 20/magical (for non-role-players, this means that the first 20 points of every attack is ignored unless the source of the attack is magical). Granted, it's pretty dang hard to do over 20 points of damage with a single blow, but it's still possible.
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