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Post by Zipp on Dec 3, 2006 3:35:06 GMT
The Helghast War is another case of good truimphing because evil is terminally stupid... Well, more because the author didn't want them to win. Even so, we know that nothing can get into Dessi lands without the Eldar knowing about it and being able to stop it (there are some exceptions in the West Watch, but by then the power of the Dessi is fading, and it's fan written besides) so Vashna can't attack them, and the whole reason the Brotherhood creates the spell is because he sends the Helghasts into their midsts. They are dying out when the spell is created, and then they strike when the Helghast's guard is down. Plus the Sommerswerd cuts through the undead like butter. A Helghast would be hard pressed to fight a page wielding the Sommerswerd. Except that there is a difference between a creature who can be chased off by peasants with burning sticks, and a creature which could annihilate a city as long as there were no magical weapons present. Personally, I don't think that passage proves anything. In fact, it says that you cut down the Helghast with your Sommerswerd before it falls into the chasm. Determinedly you chase after this evil being and, as it reaches the drawbridge, you come to within a sword's length of its skull.
'Die, foul spawn!' you cry, and with one fell sweep of your arm, you send the creature tumbling from the bridge to be consumed by the hungry flames belowThat says to me that you cut it before it falls, and once the Helghast's spirit leaves its body, the body is easily destroyed by the roaring flames. Even if this is not true, it still says nothing other than a Helghast was cast into a huge chasm filled with intense fire that it can't immediately escape. - The Helghast may simply not be able to get out of the chasm - The Helghast may eventually die due to the fire - The fire may be magical in nature, this is Helgedad and that fire has been going forever - That fire is so strong it may be considered to deal the kind of damage a burning brand cannot - It could be like Lord of the Rings: the helghast is tossed into the fires from whence it came
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Post by adunaphel on Dec 3, 2006 5:15:35 GMT
I realize the fact the Sommerswerd wastes them; it's more the fact that there is only one Sommerswerd, and dozens/hundreds/thousands of helghast. The Sommerswerd cant be everywhere at once.
As for the fire thing...you're suggesting that only dead helghast are flammable? ;D
Except dead helghast don't leave corpses. The one Lone Wolf kills in Tarnelain dissolves, and the one in the Monestary of the Sword explodes into green gas. The fact that it's whole as it falls means it's still...err..."alive". I suppose it is possible that the helghast just spent the rest of it's life at the bottom of a flaming moat (must get boring, lol), but "consumed by the flames" implies bodily destruction.
Alright, bad example on my part (although the first thing to run through a peasants head when confronted with an undead abomination probably isn't going to be, "Quick, get the torches!") I'm talking more about siege engine type oil sprayers, ballista bolts, catapult boulders, etc....things that can inflict massive physical trauma. They may not be magical, but I find it hard to believe that dropping a two ton boulder directly on a helghasts head or hitting it with a ballista capable of sinking a ship isn't going to kill it. I mean...how would, say, the Lencians combat helghast? Or the Palmyrions? They don't have magic users (maybe a handful of independants, but nothing like the Brotherhood), so they're stuck with conventional weapons. Do they just overpower them and capture them alive? What was stopping the half dozen helghast in Durenor from simply killing the king and laying waste to Hammerdal to prevent Lone Wold from getting the Sommerswerd? Toran is completely ablaze at this point, and Dessi is on the other side of the continent.
Basically, what's to stop a single Helghast from routinely trashing every city on Magnamund? Magic weapons arent exactly lying around collecting dust, and magic users are based mostly in Toran and Dessi. Everyone on Magnamund should on all accounts be a completely paranoid mess.
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Post by Zipp on Dec 3, 2006 9:20:12 GMT
I realize the fact the Sommerswerd wastes them; it's more the fact that there is only one Sommerswerd, and dozens/hundreds/thousands of helghast. The Sommerswerd cant be everywhere at once. As for the fire thing...you're suggesting that only dead helghast are flammable? ;D Indeed I am. The Helghast is struck by Sommerswerd. Dying, it falls into fire "consumed by the fire." Out of sight of Lone Wolf, it dies and dissolves. I still think that it's pretty clear that a Helghast can only be killed by Magic or its equivalent. I assume its equivalent could be intense physical damage, but I imagine that if a two ton boulder fell on a Helghast, it would simply be trapped underneath. If years later, a hero broke open that boulder, he would have a nasty surprise waiting for him. The Helghast may have some broken bones, but they would quickly mend. It may seem like the Helghast is TOO powerful, but really you have to understand how weak they are when confronted with magic of any kind. I agree. It's not a perfect fix. Joe left some major holes where the forces of evil are concerned. For instance, why didn't the Darklords breed huge numbers of dark spawn and flood Sommerlund long ago? Or why don't they just ignore Sommerlund and places where there's magic and take over land that wasn't protected? There's no good answer that I know of, other than "Joe didn't want them to." Though we can create reasons, and it is our job as fans to do so. Therefore, I propose that the major kingdoms, even small ones, all have at least some people who can perform magic, and/or are protected by the Kai and Brotherhood and Dessi, etc. etc. etc. Also, Helghasts are still quite the threat, and are still integrated into society in very dangerous ways, though Zagarna seems to prefer giaks to Helghasts
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Post by outspaced on Dec 3, 2006 9:35:15 GMT
I'm currently editing []Voyage of the Moonstone[/i] (i.e. looking through the published books for errors; don't get your hopes up for a fast release!), and there's mention of a Kakushian Magicians' Guild, if that's of any interest.
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Post by beowuuf on Dec 3, 2006 10:30:25 GMT
We never answered how the Helghast are bred, and that might also be a key. After all, why have Vordaks as apparently been their major people in charge of armies when the helghast completely outrate them in every respect.
The answer has to be that there is some aspect to intelligence or their powers etc that just takes so darned long or requires some form of monumental power or even requires some form of sacrifice. Or perhaps they simply have a short livespan, burning out in only five or ten years.
Perhaps Naar himself has to directly have a hand in spawning them, and hence the creation of them en masse for the Helghast wars was akin to him creating Agarash the damned or the darklords themselves. Otherwise a handful - perhaps at most 10 or 20 - are all they can breed at any time (after all that's about all you meet in Lone Wolf 2 when Zargarna has otherwise overbred a war machine and is hellbound to stop you gettign the Sommerswerd, and similarly that's about all that seem to be about if that in book 8 when Gnaag declares all out war and is again hellbound to take you out.
I assume the d20 rules relegating them to having ultimate weapon immunity but not completely immune is simply a tweak for game balanace rather than the pure original intent.
Personally I would assume that the Helghast can regenerate fire and acid damage as fast as it is being done, but that it would surely hurt if they can feel pain. (So you could throw them into a lake of acid or feiry chasm and they would survive forever but perhaps be in so much agony they are effectively disabled unable to think or react)
Also, as zipp poitns out you chuck a boulder on one it might not die but it won't be able to move. Similarly there is nothign to say a mob can't pin it's arms and legs with normal rope and chuck it down a hole, or simply ship it to Toran. It's dangerous because you cannot kill it or knock it unconscious, but that doesn't make it unstoppable. Mobs and soldiers would not kill major criminals either, they would be sentenced then shipped to toran to be shoved into the shadowgate anyway!
I think the fact that six helghast take on the soldiers bears this out - if they were unstoppable then only one would have come. I think if we assume they are barely breed over double digits it would make it logical why they are not standard captains of armies even though they clearly outstrip vordaks - vordkas are used because helghast are just too damned useful to be thrown away as high ranking cannon fodder!
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Post by kaikaj on Dec 3, 2006 13:34:06 GMT
Thanks for the answers. I love the animal-detecting idea.
I'm inclined to agree acid/fire/holywater should be sufficient to kill them, if there's enough, just to add a few more possibilities and make them more plausible. Something like a boulder dropping on them probably wouldn't - but it would probably crush the Helghast so badly that it would take a while to regenerate (how long could would broken limbs take anyone?)
I like the RPG rule that Helghasts are wounded after the first 20 damage. It is probably just a rebalancing thing - but it also helps the Lone Wolf stories make sense. For example, if there were some risk of serious harm or death from fighting conventionally, then that would explain why they are not prone to risking themselves in battles. They want to survive, and the shadows keep them safe.
This would make sense also if there were only a few number of Helghast. This way they are a precious commodity to the Darklords for their infiltration skills, and not disposable in battle. Is 20-30 the real number? I'd like there to be less than 100. I'm thinking these things are magically expensive to create, taking decades to spawn...
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Post by beowuuf on Dec 3, 2006 15:36:43 GMT
No, I was just suggesting a really low number : )
I too am inclined to assume some reason they are precious - if you see the Magnamund Companion, Helghast don't rate in the commant structure directly, they are under the direct command of the darklords, while the vordaks are the top of the army command structure - even though Vordaks are termined lieutenants in the companion while Helghast have been called 'fell captains' in LW book 2
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Post by adunaphel on Dec 3, 2006 17:41:48 GMT
If anyone can find a passage in the gamebooks where Joe says helghast can only be harmed by magic, I'll drop the case. So far, all I've seen is a whole bunch of, "cannot be harmed by normal weapons."
It's pretty ridiculous to think that burning one at the stake is impossible unless it's a mage that conjures up the fire. Whether or not you start it up with a match or conjure it into existence through magic doesn't change the fact that it's still fire.
I've also wondered just how numerous the superpowerful groups of Magnamund (Helghast/Kai/Crystal Star/Elder Magi) are. Double digits seems a bit too small, but more than mid-triple digits seems way too large. Personally, I'd say each group would have an absolute maximum of 500 individuals, and probably less than that. Triple digits is still low compared to the tens of thousands of giaks/regular foot soldiers each side would have available.
That may be the case, but the only time we see a helghast react to pain is when it is damaged by something potentially fatal to it. There are several occasions where a helghast takes a blow from a normal weapon that would have cut a man in half, but they don't utter so much as an 'ouch'. When we stab them with a magic spear, they shriek like steam engines.
This brings up another interesting question: If Helghast and Vordaks are both spawned, why the heck are they also undead? One has to have formerly been alive to be undead. My only guess would be that they're both somehow spawned from a corpse or sacrifice, like you mentioned. In The Darklands supplement there is a bunch of flavor-text throughout about a wounded Kai Lord who is captured in battle, and is slowly surgically/magically transformed into a darkspawn type creature. Something along those lines would make for a very interesting read.
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Post by Zipp on Dec 3, 2006 18:33:53 GMT
If anyone can find a passage in the gamebooks where Joe says helghast can only be harmed by magic, I'll drop the case. So far, all I've seen is a whole bunch of, "cannot be harmed by normal weapons." Well, in the RPG, which was written in part by Joe, the description of the Helghast says it has damage reduction against everything but magic, which means they can't be harmed by anything except magic or its equivalent. Not if they are immune to fire. Why does fire in particular seem to come up? Demon creatures are immune to fire. Helghasts are essentially undead demons. This is highly contested. It's very hard to set population values in Magnamund, mostly because Joe depicts the organizations as small, but then able to deal with the threats of Darkness all over the land. So it's confusing.
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Post by adunaphel on Dec 3, 2006 19:14:01 GMT
Yes, but there are many places where the RPG and the gamebooks don't see eye to eye, i.e. baknar are giant Walrus creatures, Cabalah are big skeletons, Burrowcrawlers are utterly gigantic behemoths capable of swallowing a man whole, Helghast are actually weaker than Vordaks, etc. When the two disagree, I tend to go with the Gamebooks. Also, damage reduction 20/magical isn't nearly the same as immunity to normal damage. While anyone would be hard pressed to deal over 20 damage with a normal weapon (especially since the undead are immune to criticals) being hit with any type of siege type weaponry would be enough to damage, if not kill them. A Kai Lord with maxed Weaponmastery would also be able to punch through it with a normal weapon....maybe a Knight of the Realm using force of arms, as well (if he ever managed to hit it).
I'm using fire as an example because it's the most common thing I can think of that isn't a "normal weapon" and does constant, heavy damage (as opposed to interspaced wacks of a sword). If something can catch fire, it can also eventually be destroyed by fire, and there is never any mention of helghast having fire immunity.
I find it odd, for instance, that someone could cast lightning hand and kill it (since it's magic), but if it was struck by a natural bolt of lightning (which I would argue has way more voltage behind it) it would be fine, since natural lightning isn't magical.
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Post by Zipp on Dec 3, 2006 21:21:01 GMT
I find it odd, for instance, that someone could cast lightning hand and kill it (since it's magic), but if it was struck by a natural bolt of lightning (which I would argue has way more voltage behind it) it would be fine, since natural lightning isn't magical. Well, Lightning could be said to be sent by the Gods and thus be magical. My point is, now we're just nitpicking and getting nowhere. I'm sure we can come up with excuses as to why certain things can damage a Helghast, like it falling into a volcano or being struck by lightning. But I don't yield to the fire explanation. I think Helghasts can survive normal fire just fine. And I don't think giant boulders would kill them either. I could concede that given large enough damage in one strike from any source, a Helghast could take damage. But I don't regular fire deals that kind of damage. On a side note, I actually don't agree with the RPG either, on most of their beastiary, but I thought I'd mention it.
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Post by longhairyuppiescum on Dec 4, 2006 12:50:41 GMT
For an opportunity to converse with a Helghast in the books (other than the one encountered in Gharro) I'd like to point to the encounter in Ikaya: TCoK, Sect. 13. No big news here, but a nice chance to swap a few words with one! Ed.: The level of education they receive might become clearer with this encounter though. - For instance, ask him of the name of the river which runs through the Wildlands (resp.Ragadorn)! ;D
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Post by Zipp on Dec 4, 2006 20:03:52 GMT
For an opportunity to converse with a Helghast in the books (other than the one encountered in Gharro) I'd like to point to the encounter in Ikaya: TCoK, Sect. 13. No big news here, but a nice chance to swap a few words with one! Ed.: The level of education they receive might become clearer with this encounter though. - For instance, ask him of the name of the river which runs through the Wildlands (resp.Ragadorn)! ;D Actually, it's the river that runs through Ragadorn, and he replies "the Ragad." And... he's fooled me with that a couple times. I think he gets the other answers right, though.
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Post by longhairyuppiescum on Dec 5, 2006 17:51:06 GMT
Actually, it's the river that runs through Ragadorn, and he replies "the Ragad." And... he's fooled me with that a couple times. I think he gets the other answers right, though. "The man stares you straight in the eye and says, 'The Ragad.'" The Ragad! lol! The answer he gives you on the ruler of Ragadorn is 4 years out of date, actually! About the tavern in Barnacle Street we don't know: afaik this street isn't mentioned anywhere else in the books!
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Post by adunaphel on Dec 5, 2006 17:59:39 GMT
Sure it is -- it's the North Star Tavern. You can only go there if the Seal of Hammerdal is stolen by the fishermen.
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