Quick question, non-LW related

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I think you're a bit out of touch, Al. Not only is it not old-fashioned in the UK, it's positively cutting edge on the continent, particularly France and the Netherlands where the majority of voters are also Eusosceptics. Interestingly, in the main the French voters are Eurosceptics for the opposite reasons the Dutch voters are, which seems to me to be just a little irreconcilable.

[Al]

Actually, I understand the debate pretty good. France voted against the Constitution not because it is eurosceptic, but because French concepts of social democracy and the role of the state are so different from that of the UK, In france it was seen as being too far in favour of a British (ie liberal) interpretation of the state, while in the UK, it is seen as a challenge to traditional sources of state legitimacy (ie Queen in Parliament and all that)
Most continental Europeans, and even the Scots and the Welsh, are much more supportive of the European project than the English, who have traditionally been labelled the reluctant europeans

[Dusk Fox]

allan said:

Brussels is not in the UK.

You say that as if my point was that Brussels was in the UK, when I know full well it is not. I'm not retarded. It is, however, on the other side of a tiny-ass frickin' channel. It's like a catapult could hurl a hairdryer across, but the Belgians couldn't use it, because standardization seems to be a totally alien concept.

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allan said:

Most continental Europeans, and even the Scots and the Welsh, are much more supportive of the European project than the English, who have traditionally been labelled the reluctant europeans

But "most" is not "all". As I say, the Dutch recently voted against for the opposite reason to the French--they want less centralised power. This is interesting, since the Dutch are widely considered to be liberal and laid back, yet they don't want to relinquish power to a central location (i.e. Brussels), so the idea that xenophobic Britons love Blighty and hate Johnny Foreigner is somewhat lessened in credence by comparison. Add into the mix the desire of many poorer nations to join the EU, (some of which have poor human rights records), which will increase the amount of monetary aid required (likely to be paid for by an increase in tax across the member states?) and Euroscepticism is growing. Indeed, millions across Europe are united in their Euroscepticism.

The US model is not one that should be applied to Europe. For one thing, there is only one major language in the US. Even so, the 'uniting' didn't happen until after a civil war. We've had two major wars in the past 100 years in Europe, and both have led to greater fragmentation and increased nationalistic isolation. The uniting of the US states happened a couple of hundred years after the very first settlers arrived there; in Europe, all of the countries have histories and cultures stretching back thousands of years.

They might be geographically close, but each of the main European countries has its own language, history, culture, prevailing attitude, and hidden agenda. That agenda for all EU countries is: "Get as much money in aid as you can." That includes 'dear ol' Blighty'.

Each country is also already supporting the UN--a creature so blind, deaf, and decrepit that it allows tragedies to happen while MPs sit around debating the ethics of saving lives. Why also have an EU parliament that will do exactly the same?

That's heavier than I wanted in a morning, but I do get pi--erm, annoyed at this black-and-white idea of Brits as monarchy-loving, flag-waving, foreigner-hating fascists who hate and fear Europe simply because it exists.

[Al]

The problem with doing any sort of comparison, is that you have to draw generalizations, which, as you point out, do not apply to all people. The fact of the matter is, though, is that the bulk of academic research into attitudes towards the EU shows that Britain (read England)is the member country that has had the hardest time dealing with the changes that the EU has brought on (my favourite theory is that is because it has never suffered from either facism or enemy occupation or both)

This has nothing to do with a black and white conception of the English, which you are totally right about being wrong, but what it does have to do with is that the English have a different (more liberal) conception of the state and society than mainland Europeans, which is reflected in their attitutes towards the EU.

The opposition of continental countries, however, is different in kind, it is based more on the fact that the project is moving too fast, rather than the idea that is prevelent in the UK, which is that it is moving in the wrong direction.

But you are right, it is too early this morning to discuss heavy stuff!

And a message to DF, I know you are not retarded

Al

I agree that a US style federal model may not be best for Europe, but there are many different political models in existence, from the UK style highly centralized unitary system, to an American or German centralized federal system to a Swiss or Canadian decentralized federal system.

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To be honest, I think I'm going to lock this thread, since I seem to have taken it gratuitously and pointlessly off-topic.

No offense is meant to anyone, but I guess these subjects don't really belong here. Apologies all round.