Grandmastership and physical attributes

[Storm Dancer]

Er... I don't remember this. If I've completed the Magnakai books I *don't* get to benefit from Lone Wolf's Grand Master training?

Lessee here... the circles add up to +5 CS and +8 EP. The increased base for newcomers is +15 CS and +10 EP!

Supposedly this is compensated in the use of Psi-Surge, Weaponmastery and Curing, but as soon as you get the equivalent GM discipline they become pretty much obsolete anyway.

Hmm. Don't look now, but I think I might be cheating

[The Wytch-King]

Hmm, the "compensation for Weaponmastery and Psi-Surge (and other mind-zappers ;D)" theory I've never really bought. After all, as per the description Grand Weaponmastery gives you +5 to CS; a complete newcomer who starts out with a Grand Master book will add the whole 5 points to his already raised CS base, while we poor veterans are expected to add only 1 point to our CS. And the "mind-zappers" are not supposed to work against every creature - how can they be added permanently to a veteran's CS?

But I think what that raised CS and EP bases definitely are supposed to compensate are all the nifty little pieces of equipment we veterans are loaded with. None of the Special Items from the Game Rules list are available to newcomers, after all!

To be honest, I haven't tried to calculate exactly if that does even the odds out between newcomers and veterans, but maybe that's not really possible, considering that for example Curing or the Silver Bow of Duadon do not add directly to CS or EP ...

What say the experts?


The Wytch-King


edit: Just uncovered an old and nearly forgotten thread where that problem was talked about as well. Here you go ...

[Drear]

Magnakai LW has CS 10+RN, EP 20+RN.
Grand master LW has 25+RN, EP 30+RN.
That leaves 15 CS and 10 EP to account for.

The lorecircles are a part of this: +5CS and +11 EP.

That leaves 10 CS and -1 EP (?).

The relevant Special Items you can bring are:
Sommerswerd: 8 CS
Silver Helm: 2 CS
Silver Bracers: 2 CS, 1 EP
Kagonite Chainmail: 3 CS, 1 EP

This means that the end tally is -5 CS and -3 EP, i.e. a newly built grandmaster LW is a bit weaker than a FULLY equipped Magnakai LW.

Then come the disciplines, but they are equal whether you made the character during GM series or in the magnakai books. Psi-surge is replaced by Kai-surge, Weaponmastery by Grand Weaponmastery.

So is this fair? Probably not. The Sommerswerd is hugely powerful, however, often limited in use, or simply makes things tougher to beat, so I'd actually say it's not THAT good. Then you have to consider all those extra equipment pieces, such as the silver helm. If you don't have that from book #3, and miss the stuff in book #12, you are actually in a pretty bad position in the GM books. In that case, I'd say that a good alternative is to at least get a Helmet, a Shield, and a Chainmail Waistcoat, for a total of 2 CS and 6 EP, from the start. You will have a weaker CS, but will at least have a slightly higher EP (9 points total) than a newly made grandmaster LW.

Any thoughts?

[Ghost Bear]

Up until very recently, I added the Weaponskill and Weaponmastery bonuses up cumultively (for an extra +6CS on top). I recently removed this bonus, since I've read everywhere that it's not allowed, but actually using the bonus would go some way towards giving a player who's played through the first 12 books a nice little advantage.

-GB

[Relenoir]

Any thoughts?

Well, I try to have as few as possible this late at night, but since you asked nicely. . .
First off, you can pass on Grand Weaponmastery for a while when you begin the GM books, because it only gives you one extra CS point over what you previously had from the Magnakai books. This leaves you open for other Disciplines. A nice way to look at it!
Missing the special items would suck, but more than likely you can get most of them without trouble. It was also discussed that if you got the Bronin Vest in book 12 but not the Kagonite Chainmail, that you could possibly use it in the GM series because it was speculated that Joe didn't want you to use both together, which would have been allowed in book 12. The only way to miss the Bracers and Vest in book 12 is not to have a certain Discipline, but by the time you're an Archmaster you have a 90% chance of taking it; I can't imagine not taking the Discipline by this point. Check Wytch-King's link to see what I'm talking about in my post on that thread.
Getting to use Mindblast at +4CS without losing EP and Psi-surge for +6 and 1 EP is nice without having to spend a Discipline slot for Kai-surge, versus having to take Kai-surge just for the option to use Mindblast. Being able to heal 1 EP per section or 20 in a pinch is really handy throughout the GM series, and if you didn't take Grand Huntmastery right away, food is not an issue either. An extra bonus of +2 when making ranged attacks is far from useless. Loyalty bonuses rock. ;D
Of course, just for completing book 2, you cut the 15 CS bonus for re-rolling in half. . . of course, you could always carry Helshezag instead, and adding 3 to ranged attacks with the Silver Bow is handy as well!

In that case, I'd say that a good alternative is to at least get a Helmet, a Shield, and a Chainmail Waistcoat, for a total of 2 CS and 6 EP, from the start.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think you can get a shield at this point in the game (I know, bad pun ). If I remember correctly, the last chance you have to get the helmet and shield is in the Kai books, and the chainmail waistcoat is several places in the Magnakai books. Furthermore, the shield is not on the list of permissable carry-over items:( ; I posted about this somewhere else and nobody could seem to figure out why. Technically, I guess that means you can't use it anymore. How annoying!

[Storm Dancer]

Personally I completely ignored the list of items I'm allowed to carry over; I just took it to mean that none that weren't given would feature in the text. It's not as though Dever gives a reason why you can't keep anything else...

But I didn't get Kagonite chainmail (where was it?), and I'm not about to chuck away my Silver Bracers, Bronin Vest and Shield just for the sake of complicity.

I ended up just adding the increases onto my original base stats (which, fortunately, were 19 and 29 ).

The text states that LW's been training hard to TEXT his physical ability ever since he became a GM, so you'd expect him to have developed beyond just the lore circle bonuses anyway... And I'm not averse to being too powerful - it's not as though I ever restart a book after dying, anyway.

Drear - the lorecircles only give +8 to EP, not +11.

[Storm Dancer]

*Sigh* I really should take the time to login...

'TEXT' in the paragraph above was supposed to read 'improve'.

Relenoir - I know that it gives you less need to choose the updated skills, but it still leaves you weaker than a new LW in many ways (especially if you don't have the Sommerswerd), and eventually you're going to get the skills anyway, at which point the new LW is way tougher than the old.

Also, there are a fair bunch of text checks on Deliverance and Kai-surge, and probably a few on Grand Weaponmastery, so we're still a long way from getting the full benefits of actually having the skills.

[Drear]

No, the bonus is +11. Circle of fire gives +2, the other three +3 to EP. Total = +11.
I wasn't saying that you were officially allowed to bring them over (shield, helmet, chainmail waistcoat), I just felt that if you missed the silver helmet and the stuff in #12, you could compensate for that, despite the rules. After all, how hard is it for the grand master of the Kai to get a shield, a chainmail, and a helmet?

"Hey Ulnar, I'd like some armour, this is starting to feel pretty silly, I mean, all sommlending soldiers get some, even the guards here have them..."
"Lone Wolf, you know it's not that easy. You have all these nifty disciplines and stuff, and if you got armour too, all the soldiers would want some disciplines too. We've been at this before, now run along and save the world again, like a nice little boy."
Lone Wolf sulks off, and sticks his tongue out at the armoured guards of the throne room in passing. One snickers at him.

[The Wytch-King]

@ Drear:

*lol*!


The Wytch-King

[Ghost Bear]

I don't see why the Bronin Vest shouldn't be taken as well. I don't do it, but it's not too logical in my opinion. It's a special enough item that it should warrant taking in the GM series, and the Kagonite Chainmail is hard to get anyway.

Maybe Joe was giving 'weaker' Kai Lords, who hadn't played through books 1-11 an advantage in getting the Kagonite?

Seems a bit odd though, to me, since you think he'd want to encourage people to play 1-11, not discourage them.