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Post by alderaine on Jul 16, 2008 15:31:58 GMT
This discussion is unrelated to ITEMS.XML - all information about exchange rates, etc, will need to be handled by the book XML (e.g. 01FFTD.XML) as it varies from page to page. I don't think personally that I would even include coins in ITEMS.XML - I would handle them in the book XML in the same(ish) way as combat skill and endurance. All that being said, as long as your items.xml does the job, all is fine
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Post by Dave on Jul 23, 2008 4:41:31 GMT
You guys are correct. The better we get the items.xml out of the gate, the better we are going to be. Also, I think that there is a blanket that takes 2 slots somewhere in the original books. I'm not contributing much here, but I know there is a Tent in book 3 that takes up three slots. So, the general size of items ranges from 0 to 3, with 1 being the default. There are quite a few (various ropes, blankets, shovels, etc.) that take 2. And I assume that any items which are given to you in the text along with the disclaimer "If you already possess the maximum number of special items, you do not need to discard any to take this item" take up zero space.
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Post by jsager on Aug 7, 2008 21:10:17 GMT
I haven't forgotten this project... I've been overwhelmed by work of late, which is a good thing for my business but a bad thing for P.A.
Sorry guys, I will be back.
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Post by alderaine on Aug 8, 2008 8:39:41 GMT
No problem - happens to us all Check out the Seventh Sense board - there is a project to create journal entries for all the books, which we should include in the CNF.
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Post by jsager on Aug 13, 2008 5:24:32 GMT
I will, as soon as I get the chance. I've been working 14 hour days for two weeks solid, with only one day off. Such is the price of starting a new business... hopefully I get real financial independence on the flip side.
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Post by alderaine on Aug 13, 2008 10:15:33 GMT
Don't worry Jeremy - happens to all of us. As this is a communal project, can you keep your progress somewhere we can access it - maybe post updates to the forum? If anybody else out there is familiar with XML building and would like to help out, you are all more than welcome.
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Post by alderaine on Nov 14, 2008 10:33:58 GMT
Jeremy - are you still working on this? Are there any other volunteers to help out?
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Post by squish on Apr 3, 2010 12:05:40 GMT
Hello, I am new here and this is my first post to the forum. First I would like to wish everyone at Project Aon a very happy Easter. I've not pigged out on chocolate bunnies or Easter eggs ... yet. I found Project Aon a little over a year ago now and I was very happy to see that the team at Project Aon and Joe Dever had given one of my favourite game book series a new lease of life; and it's free. I grew up playing Lone Wolf, Greystar and Fighting Fantasy, which led to roleplaying (DnD, GURPS) for over 20 years (now I feel old ). I still have some of my old game books. Now to the point of this post before I start rambling on. What is the current status of the Common Navigation File project? I would like to be involved in creating the new Common Navigation File. I have been fiddling with a few ideas in my spare time some of which are based on the discussions earlier in this thread: thanks to jsager, alderaine, outspaced and others. There appears to have been very little activity in this project (if the forums are anything to judge), although I understand that Dave maybe working on something similar for his Seventh Sense project. A little about me: I work as a software tester for a localisation company and I am studying part time for a degree in computing with the Open University. I have some experience with programming, in particular Java, and XML. Because I work full time and with my studies I may not be able to devote as much of my time as I would like. I will post more details later on once I've found my notes, which are on scraps of paper at the moment. Thanks. Note to self: must remember to increase the time I can stay logged on for, otherwise I can't submit my epic posts I've spent hours slaving over. My blonde moment.
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Post by squish on Apr 4, 2010 15:03:01 GMT
Hi, As has already been discussed we need to add the game logic to the XML files. But I think we can also take this opportunity to update the structural content of the XML files, which is fine but could benefit from some changes. I've outlined some general suggestions below. XML SchemasThe new Common Navigation File (CNF) shall be written using an XML schema language instead of the old Document Type Definition (DTD) form. XML provides better flexibility and more support. We can also do things with the schema that are not supported in DTDs such as constraints and pattern matching. Users only have to learn one language, XML, instead of XML and DTD. We have a choice here of which schema language to use. W3C Schema, RelaxNG or Schematron are the main ones. We could even combine them but I think, from personal preference and to keep things simple, I would stick with one language. In this case, the W3C Schema, as this is the one I assume most people, including myself, will be familiar with. Third Party SchemasWhere possible, we should use existing third party schemas. Taking a maxim from programming, we should "design with reuse". Basically this means we don't have to reinvent the wheel and can concentrate on the CNF specific content; it saves time and is easier to manage, although it will mean that there are more schema files compared to the original single DTD. For example, we can: For example, the Dublin Core and HTML table schemas are provided as is from their respective designers. We would not need to make any changes to them; just import them into the CNF schema and add the appropriate elements (meta and table) so they can be used. Current XMLAlthough the current XML works there are a few things that need to be addressed. Make the XML more data centric: Remove or at least have very few presentational elements such as the <typ> or <hr> elements. The <typ> element is typically for representing typographical content (according to the DTD). In most cases I've seen this around attribute names to change their appearance. This could easily be replaced with an <attribute> or <ability> element, which could provide additional functionality. Restructure the elements: The structure of the XML should more closely match the original source material: the printed books. There is no need for the <data> elements. This can more easily be represented by multiple levels of <section> elements, one inside the other. This is typical in books, i.e. chapters, sections or parts. The main bulk of the content is inside a <section> element named title, which is not necessary. The fontmatter, numbered sections and backmatter can be put into their own elements. Rename some elements: XML should typically be readable by humans not just software. The <p> element can be renamed to <para> so it is more obvious that it represents a paragraph of text. People familiar with HTML may know what <p> is but others may not. Also, the <dl>, <dd> and <dt> elements should be renamed as well; I assume these represent terms and definitions: it took me a little while to work this one out. There is no real need to abbreviate the names of elements or attibutes too much otherwise their meaning becomes lost. Separating Common ContentAs has been suggested by jsager earlier in this thread it will be necessary to create a single file with all the items from each book. We can also do the same for disciplines (Kai, Magnakai, etc.) as these are also common to all the books and can be referenced from within the book XML much like the items. The Action Chart would also need to be converted to XML. One last thing to add is that the Common Navigation File can be used for all the game book series (Lone Wolf, Greystar the Wizard and Freeway Warrior). The basic structure is almost identical with a few minor changes. Greystar has Magical Powers (spells) instead of Disciplines and Freeway Warrior has Skills, for example. I hope this has been helpful but not too long winded. Thanks.
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Post by Peregrine on Apr 4, 2010 15:58:52 GMT
Well since somebody's posted (such a well-considered post too!), I guess I'd better chime in on this. I have a couple of PA-related projects on the go. I don't like to talk about them, as I'm notorious for my projects petering out half way through. (Also I like the "wow" factor when I drop a complete or nearly complete project on an unsuspecting audience. ) But I've hinted at one of these projects (a new generation of LWAC) in my current signature; and here I'll talk about another, though it's related. I've been fiddling with just the sort of stuff Squish talks about: reworking and extending the current gamebook XML format to perform the job required of the "Common Navigation File". I've gone through and looked at what actions a section can require or allow the player to take; and I've compiled a list of some suggested XML elements to do the job. I've even tinkered with a test case, namely Dawn of the Darklords from TMC. This project is very doable. There are changes that could and should be made to the original gamebook XML (though may I point out, on the subject of content vs. presentation, that the XML files also need to serve the purpose of a reasonably faithful digitisation of the original books, so some things like <hr> may need to remain). But mostly what we need can be done by extending the format with new elements and attributes. (And that includes reusing others' work as Squish says.) I actually don't agree that XML files defining items or disciplines/powers/etc. are necessary. An items file would serve the purpose of allowing each book to use a unique, unambiguous identifier whenever it references an item found in a previous adventure. But hey, the gamebooks already need to do that! And they do it with the names. For the most part, that's all the item identifier we need. If it asks for a Brass Key, check the inventory for an item named "Brass Key". Simple. Only rarely are there clashes between names, or cases where Item A is asked for, but Item B should also be allowed. And my feeling on how to address this is certainly not a master items list. To borrow a programming metaphor, we should use "duck typing": if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Instead of "do you have an item with reference code 337, 647 or 934 from the master list?", we should say "do you have an item that has Quality X?" And item names and qualities are set in the section where you pick them up, or possibly in an <items> element that's in the XML metadata/preamble for each book; again, not in a master list. No need. (If you ever did want a master list for any reason, a simple script or transform could be run over each book's XML to pick them out.) As for a disciplines/powers XML file, I'm afraid I don't see the benefit. There's very, very little semantic information or behaviour associated with these. Mostly it's just "do you have power X at rank Y?" Sometimes there's a "lose N Endurance every time you use X (even if the section text doesn't specifically remind you to do so)", or some other "if A, then B" relationship that such a file could specify. But the gulf between having such a file, and writing software that automatically parses it in order to build rules and behaviours, seems so wide as to be not worth it. What I mean to say is, there is so little that is reusable! I imagine there would be many elements to define behaviours that exist precisely once for one power, two at most (e.g. you get a Herb Pouch if you have one of two of Grey Star's magicks). And the program's logic to understand these elements would likewise be quite specialised. Instead, just write program logic that's equally specialised without having to read it from an XML file. We're working with a more or less closed set of known rules here, folks. Just my 2c, with interest... (PS It was in the course of this project that I found RelaxNG to be much the nicest to work with, in my humble if wordy opinion.)
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Post by alderaine on Apr 8, 2010 8:28:29 GMT
Hi all Great to hear of the renewed interest in this project. We do sporadically get ideas for new book readers, and if all the information was readily available within the XML and associated files that we could make available, it would be extremely helpful. I did do some research into this a couple of years back with Jeremy, but that stalled mostly due to a lack of new book readers on the scenes recently (most of the recent ideas would hit problems with the distribution license.) Definitely well worth picking this up - give me a shout if I can be of any help, otherwise go for it James
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Post by squish on Apr 10, 2010 11:12:46 GMT
Thanks Peregrine for your helpful comments. Some very useful information and it's always good to get a fresh pair of eyes on this. With regard to putting the disciplines or items in a separate file, I was thinking of reducing duplication of data between books as much as anything else. Although, after reading through some of the books again and in the case of disciplines, in particular, they do not add much to the game mechanics other than, as you've said, testing if the player has a particular discipline. Weapon skill and weapon mastery are one of the few that actually have a quantifiable modifier, i.e. a bonus to combat skill, for example. Putting a common list of items in each book; in an <items> element for example, is a good idea. In most cases when a particular section refers to an item it's usually referring to a kind of item rather than a specific item. On the occasion that a section does refer to a specific item it is usually a unique item anyway such as the Seal of Hammerdal, the Sommerswerd or the Prince's sword, for example. I had a look at some RelaxNG schemas to get an idea of how they work. I was reading the RelaxNG schema/specification for Docbook 5, which had some good ideas. It's certainly very different from using W3C schema. I was particuarly interested in Schematron as well which seems quite useful. I realized that the complexity of this project could escalate so I think I will follow another maxim (not sure if this a programming one or not). Namely the principle of K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Silly. Thanks
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Post by kraagenskul on May 20, 2010 19:15:31 GMT
Hey all, I am new to the boards, though I have been a fan of ProjectAon for quite some time. I am currently working on a version of this for the iPhone (through a webapp, not a posted app); I am currently using the XML file I found on this site, but realized, like many of you, that it needs some tweaking.
I am interested in helping out on this CNF idea. Right now seems like people are just doing there own thing off to the side (including me); it would be great if we could combine efforts and have one unified solution. With all the different platforms we have it sure would make new development much easier.
I'll even volunteer to be the point person on this effort.
If anyone is interested in seeing my alpha app:
Sorry, I took it down so I wasn't in violation of the license.
It works in any browser, but looks best in iPhone. You cannot do anything but navigate through the sections currently.
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Post by alderaine on May 25, 2010 15:56:40 GMT
Hi Kraag Great to hear from you It is excellent to hear you are happy to be point man - that's what we've been missing. I did try to take point, but my XML isn't quite up to it - and I think we unanimously decided that was the right place for the information to live. AON are perfectly happy to accept the updated XML and to help where they can. For the content, I would ask Dave for any files he has - as he has by far the most complete set of book coverage to date. A few things on your site... First of all, I can't get it to work in IE8 - I get a list of headings, but nothing seems to do anything. More importantly though - I suspect AON will have to ask you to take the site down. The license is very explicit about how book content can be used, and essentially states there are two options: 1. Allow the user to download a copy from the AON site, making it very clear they are going to the site and ensuring they see the distribution restrictions. 2. Ensure it is very clear to the user they are reading it from the AON site (i.e. the URL is visible in their navigation bar - even frames are explicitly banned by the license.) AON is very happy to create staff accounts for this - simply e-mail projectaon@freelists.org to request one (I think that works - there is a form somwhere on the site as well though - I can hunt for it if needed.) We do prefer that all software related to the AON material is hosted in an AON staff account anyway so that we can hopefully help to support it in the long run (in theory!) - see the software development FAQ for further details on this. Saying that, I think the idea of creating a web page designed to be read on an iPhone is excellent - especially if it can be compatible with all mobile formats.
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Post by kraagenskul on May 27, 2010 15:59:08 GMT
Thanks for the reply...
I will take the stuff down off of my site as the last thing I want to do is be in license violation or get AON in trouble; I will also look into your suggestion of a staff account. The end product is going to be static, so hosting it on AON shouldn't be a problem.
The site I made will not work in IE8 or any other browser that is non-compliant with HTML 5. It also won't look all that great in an HTML5 browser as it is made specifically for the iPhone. I am hoping it will work with other mobile formats as well.
I will get started with the XML suggestions shortly, taking into consideration previous posts, and I will ask Dave for information as well.
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