Ryan
Kai Lord
Posts: 69
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Post by Ryan on Jul 18, 2008 8:21:29 GMT
Is there a simple list of all Lone Wolf-related software? I am stumbling across lots of tools (like Hyena), which I haven't seen listed anywhere else...doesn't someone maintain a list somewhere?
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Post by alderaine on Jul 18, 2008 8:36:33 GMT
I do maintain one, yes, but it is not public as most of them are in the early stages.
It is up to the developers to promote their products through the creation of sites and the use of this forum if they wish to make them public.
Most projects die very soon after they are announced (or at least I have not heard back from a great many!)
What information are you looking for?
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Ryan
Kai Lord
Posts: 69
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Post by Ryan on Jul 18, 2008 8:50:57 GMT
I do maintain one, yes, but it is not public as most of them are in the early stages. It is up to the developers to promote their products through the creation of sites and the use of this forum if they wish to make them public. Most projects die very soon after they are announced (or at least I have not heard back from a great many!) What information are you looking for? Nothing in particular - was just interested in how most of the programs are implemented, etc. Something like a Wiki page with the list would really be helpful for people interested in getting into the books. Of course, a project status could also be there... |
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Post by alderaine on Jul 18, 2008 11:35:15 GMT
It would not really be useful. Until a project is ready for beta testers, it is up to the developer if they want to make it public. To a man, they all say no  If I get two people asking about the same platform, then I will mention that another project has been started, and depending on the developers I'll probably let them know about each other - that's not really happened much yet though. In terms of where to present the information, there are two places - here, and on the books page. This forum can be used by developers at any point they want to. The books page can only be used for "completed" projects - i.e. there is at least one fully useable book. Suffice to say that over time, most platforms seem to be being covered! The one I am MOST interested in is a completely web-based solution, i.e. a web page that AON could host (or point to if we don't have the hardware) that would run the books completely (i.e. do a lot more than the existing stat sheets do!) - Nobody is looking at that one currently..... |
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Post by jsager on Jul 18, 2008 14:54:24 GMT
...and I'm of the opinion that that splintered attitude is the reason most of them fail.
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Post by alderaine on Jul 18, 2008 15:19:05 GMT
I'm not sure I follow that comment? It is not about failure, it is about personal choice. Up until recently, the only "official" AON projects were of the statskeeper lines. Seventh Sense was the only semi-official book reader, although DS has joined that group. Both have single, dedicated developers, and neither are currently looking to open up to additional developers (although Seventh Sense may be looking for help with navigation files in the future.) Developers are always welcome to work together, but most developers are doing it because they enjoy the project, not particularly for commercial release. The right way for that to happen is for the developer of the software to post here asking for support and detailing the languages etc which are in use. The Common Navigation File project is an AON-initiated project - I will most certainly be promoting that one and finding developers to work on it until it is complete. That being said, the goal of that project is not to write a book reader, but simply to support book readers. I would like to promote the afformentioned online book reader, but there's not a lot of point in making much ground on that project (unless a developer wants to take it under their wing) until the CNF project is complete - or at least well underway. I give all developers the same information - that they are welcome to use the forums to advertise their projects and get support on them - but I do not want developers to feel they have to sign up to a "list" before they can start working on their software - this would probably only reduce visibility as they may be more cautious about putting their ideas forward if they felt they would suddenly become public. Any developers that do want to work together are very welcome to work on the core projects, and may be invited to work on other developer's projects. Indeed, one of the aims of taking me onboard as co-ordinator was to try to gain some ownership of source code - again, unfortunately, putting too much pressure in that direction only puts developers off, so we go for the more gentle approach AON does have copies of the source code for both Seventh Sense and DS (I belive,) but they are not for public release unless the developers cease to work on them. At present Jeremy, I see you as lead developer for the CNF project, and also as helping out on other projects such as the Seventh Sense website. I'm kind of hoping you will continue on as lead developer on the web book reader project when we get that far? Knowing how scarce time is, I would certainly recommend against developers taking on more than a couple of projects at once. Giving advice is one thing (and what these forums are for) but actively working on projects is another entirely. One of the biggest problems is that until we can produce the CNFs and general advice on writing bookreaders that use them, everybody starts writing in different languages and in different ways, making it very difficult to make use of additional developers on the projects. Advice is always welcome of course, so long as we don't try to move people away from their languages of choice. |
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Post by Thomas Wolmer on Jul 22, 2008 12:44:30 GMT
I'm not sure I follow that comment? It is not about failure, it is about personal choice. What I think Jeremy is thinking about is that with this secrecy, a great idea might go unexplored because it depends on one person being able to drive the implementation of it to at least quite late stages. If the developer runs into some difficulty (technical or simply related to his own ability to devote time to the project), the whole thing might die. If on the other hand, the whole project was open at least from the stage where the goal was possible to formulate, chances are that other developers would jump in, help out with whatever technical difficulties there might be, and they could keep things running even though the original developer might not be able to stay at the helm. But, one thing that inspires people to even start working on an idea is that it's "their baby", and humans are protective of their babies. This is something you cannot ignore either, and trying to force (if that would somehow be possible) people to keep everything public and to let anyone join in wouldn't be so productive either, methinks. |
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Post by alderaine on Jul 22, 2008 12:59:53 GMT
Good mediation Once the CNF project is complete, I'll be looking to encourage book readers for all platforms, and will create an "idea list" with a note of the current status. I don't think it is worth promoting ideas for platforms until we have the supporting navigation files for at least the first five books though. |
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Ryan
Kai Lord
Posts: 69
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Post by Ryan on Jul 23, 2008 10:50:55 GMT
Coming back to the original question, though - would it not be useful to maintain a public list of at least those products that have been released, and where to obtain them?
And if it were a wiki-type page, developers could post their own pages for their own products if they so wanted...
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Post by Thomas Wolmer on Jul 23, 2008 13:07:55 GMT
Coming back to the original question, though - would it not be useful to maintain a public list of at least those products that have been released, and where to obtain them? And if it were a wiki-type page, developers could post their own pages for their own products if they so wanted... Almost the whole Project Aon website is a wiki, and... www.projectaon.org/en/Sanctum/VolunteerWikiPagesPerhaps we want some generally agreed structure for software products/projects before someone starts creating such pages though. |
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Post by jsager on Jul 23, 2008 15:10:00 GMT
I think Thomas hit the nail pretty close to the head on what I was trying to say.
Despite the fact that I work mostly with .NET these days, I "grew up" as a programmer writing Java and am a big believer in the power of open source to make excellent quality projects and products where individuals working alone could never hope to succeed (see Linux as an example).
In my mind, we'd be better off if all the existing projects were up on sourceforge or something and contributors were helping to design and code them.
It's not like any of us are going to make any money off of these products directly.
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Post by Dave on Jul 24, 2008 1:44:44 GMT
The problem is its like my child. I actually *do* have children, and I'm very protective of them. I don't trust just anybody to raise my children, or even babysit them. I consequently don't trust just anybody to make source code changes/additions to my program. At least not until it's a legal adult. |
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Post by alderaine on Jul 24, 2008 8:41:03 GMT
Open source is a very specific market. It is one of those things where if you are raised in it, that's the way you know to work.
Most of the developers working on software were NOT raised in that area - most are very careful about even allowing AON to have a copy of the code and need many assurances that nobody else has access to it.
I am more than happy for developers to make their code public and work with other developers.
I am more than happy for developers to ask other developers for their source code - but please, please do not get upset when the developers say no!
We also have to be very careful with open source development. Most of the AON content, including all text from books and all images, is covered by an operating license that means it can only be distributed directly from the AON site. If you do any form of open distribution you could be opening yourselves up to legal action from the owners of the Lone Wolf copyright.
The Common Navigation Files (or ANY navigation files) will more than likely fall under this restriction, since they will inevitably have skill names, item names, etc.
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