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Post by jellyfish on May 16, 2009 16:15:31 GMT
When you don't have the sommerswerd, boss fights become easier (e.g. Chaos Master, exterminus). You get to fight a different version of them, sometimes with different and more interesting weapons (dagger of vashna, ironheart broadsword, zejar dulaga).
Since the Sommerswerd bonus is toned down to +2 in hardcore, how are we going to access these "easy mode" bosses? Can we choose not to use the sommerswerd (not allowed in the books)?
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Post by Dave on May 16, 2009 19:27:42 GMT
Hmmm. Depending on the monastery options for book, you may be able to choose to leave the Sommerswerd "home" at the beginning of the book. You are also capable of simply tossing the Sommerswerd into the garbage (probably not the best course of action.) However, since the vast majority of "If you have the sommerswerd, turn to xxx" is based in simply whether or not you *have* it (regardless of whether you are actually *using* it), you'll have to turn there if you have it.
Don't forget that the Sommerswerd in Hardcore gives a +8 bonus vs. Darklords (and their most powerful minions - like Chaos Master).
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Post by jellyfish on May 17, 2009 0:23:02 GMT
Since the SS doesn't help as much against normal fodder though, and against the "powerful minions" the SS tends to give THEM more bonuses than Lone Wolf, it seems that in Hardcore mode the sommerswerd is mostly a liability. You'd only bring it if you somehow knew for sure you wouldn't be facing any bosses. Even with Lone Wolf's highly developed ESP, the logic itself is highly metagamey and screwy - you're leaving it behind because you know it will scale up your boss fights - this has no ingame reason to rationalize it.
Instead of abusing pre-knowledge like that, I'd rather just houserule myself into using the sommerswerd ONLY in book 2 under hardcore rules. Might be worth considering making that a standard rule under Hardcore.
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Post by Dave on May 17, 2009 2:24:30 GMT
I'm not sure I entirely follow your idea, jellyfish. Would you please elaborate?
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Post by huanchoo on May 17, 2009 4:20:35 GMT
Hmm I just think that I'll wait for David to finish programming the Magnakai series. Then we'll know if anything works.
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Post by jellyfish on May 18, 2009 15:11:12 GMT
I'm not sure I entirely follow your idea, jellyfish. Would you please elaborate? Example: Zakhan Kimah with SS: CS 44, immune to mindblast and psi-surge; without sommerswerd, with psi-ring: CS 34, not immune. Given that SS is +8 to CS, you get a net +2 to combat ratio if you DON'T have the SS, and a whopping net +6 if you also have psi-surge. Put another way, having the SS actually gives you a -6 penalty to your CS for that fight compared with "accidentally leaving it at home". This is just one example of how having the SS is a net disadvantage against bosses because they scale up more than the +8 bonus given by the SS. In almost every case where you have separate stats for "with SS" and without, the enemy boss gets more than +8 CS, making the SS a net penalty. Savvy players know exactly in which books these fights occur and tactically leave the SS behind *just for that book*. On all other adventures, they bring the SS. This is metagaming, and I'm raising the issue of whether a good ruleset should allow this kind of behavior that has no rationalization in the actual game world.
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Post by Dave on May 18, 2009 22:04:33 GMT
I see what you're saying. I see it mostly as just a flaw in the design of those combats. I'm not sure how much a program like Seventh Sense can do in alleviating the disparity in those kinds of things. I might be able to change it to something like, if you have the sommerswerd equipped, turn to xxx. But that makes me have to deal with problem of a player who simply equips a "regular" weapon so they can get to the easy combat, then pulls the sommerswerd out in the actual fight... totally unfair. Perhaps I could implement a variable which tracks "weapons not allowed" for certain combats. Or should it just be a "Sommerswerd not allowed" for certain combats, so you can still there, but you can't use the sommerswerd?
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Post by jellyfish on May 18, 2009 22:42:51 GMT
Well players should always be allowed to do what they want since the program is a tool, not a torturer, but my suggestion was, to qualify for Hardcore, you have to leave the sommerswerd at home starting at book 3. Poof, all the game balance issues disappear without having to institute any additional house rules (like changing the SS bonus to +2 for certain foes and not for others), since the books are explicitly balanced by JD for play for players without the sommerswerd.
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Post by Dave on May 18, 2009 23:45:14 GMT
But you've got to have something to kill Helghast with...
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Post by jellyfish on May 19, 2009 2:07:24 GMT
Every single Helghast or Darklord in the game is killable via non-Sommerswerd means.
Edit: Although the Gnaag helghast will be quite hard to survive (though not impossible)
Base 17 +2 silver helmet +2 shield +4 psi-surge +3 weaponmastery +2 hardcore bonus = 30
Helghast: CS 34 EP 48
So it would really hurt not to have the double damage of the SS.
My rough estimate is maybe around a 30% chance of survival. Not great, but that's hardcore for you. Still more survivable than those Villains of Sommerlund though...
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Post by beowuuf on May 19, 2009 5:43:30 GMT
gnaag helghast is avoidable though
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Post by eastpaw on May 20, 2009 10:29:13 GMT
But Helghasts are immune to non-magic weapons. If you have neither the SS nor the magic spear, you're sunk.
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Post by jellyfish on May 20, 2009 15:19:12 GMT
JD made sure you could play each book standalone, going into it with nothing but some luck and the starting equipment at the beginning of the book. That means you never necessarily need items from any other book to complete a given book.
So, for the Kai and Magnakai baddies who are immune to normal weapons, here are the non-SS options:
DoV = Dagger of Vashna
Tarnalin Helghast: Magic spear Gnaag Helghast: Paido's bluesteel sword Haakon: Jeweled mace (get it from the hermit by trading your leftover Oede for it) Zakhan Kimah: DoV, or psychic ring Chaosmaster: Ironheart broadsword Kraagenskul: Helshazag (kill him with his own sword - extra style points) Taktaal: Zejar dulaga, DoV or Helshezag Gnaag: DoV or Helshezag
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Post by robecoyote on May 20, 2009 19:53:22 GMT
The problem you have with Haakon is you're not actually guaranteed of getting the Jewelled Mace. Even if you happen to have gone the route that nets you the Oede herb, you still have to get lucky on a random roll as you approach Ikaresh to pass by the vaxeler cave.
I'd always assumed that in this case, Haakon is weakened by the fact he isn't in the Darklands. Remember this is before they Nadziranim had built the device that allowed them to survive outside their realm, so I'm guessing Haakon's considerable powers went into keeping him alive, but at the expense of making him susceptible to a death by ordinary means.
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Post by jellyfish on May 20, 2009 20:37:38 GMT
I made a mistake with Haakon, you use the jeweled mace to get a bonus vs his summoned minion (CS 20, pfffft), but not Haakon himself. To beat him you just have to grab his evil gem out of his hand for an auto-kill, no random roll needed. He's another one of those bosses that suddenly becomes much harder if you have the sommerswerd.
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