|
Post by Wild Horse on Jun 7, 2004 15:31:33 GMT
Hi, I have always been puzzled by the discrepancies between the gamebooks and the Legends.
Possible spoilers ahead...
In the gamebooks, it is said that Helghasts can only be harmed and killed by magical weapons. This is borne out by the various scenarios in the various books.
This is a brief list, not comprehensive as yet.
Book Magical weapon used ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Book 2 - Magic Spear, Sommerswerd Book 3 - Sommerswerd Book 8 - Sommerswerd or Lord Paido's blue-steel sword Book 14 - Sommerswerd / Dagger of Vashna / Helshezag / Jewelled Mace
Ok, the Legends follow roughly the same gamebook rules although they do add that Brotherhood magicians or other skilled mages are able to kill a Helghast with their own magic.
Yet I read the following scenarios, whereby Helghasts can be killed by normal weapons?
1) In Legends 2, The Dark Door Opens, during her bath in a river, Q****fer manages to kill a Helghast by throwing a Giak sword right into its forehead.
2) In the Legends 5, Claw of Helgedad, Q****fer (again) disposes of a Helghast in a dark corridor by making a few swipes with her sword (a normal weapon).
3) In Legends 5 again, Carag the Giak, strikes down a Helghast in a corridor of Helgedad, with his own Giak sword.
4) In Legends 7, The Birthplace, while facing the Helghast Maouk, Banedon allowed Thog the Mighty to inflict the initial damage before using his own left-handed magic. (ok, this shouldn't count.)
Question 1: My point is, why is it that in some cases, a normal weapon like a sword or Giak blade is able to kill a Helghast? I have nothing against Q****fer although she appears in two of the cases stated above.
Question 2: Could it be that Helghasts can be killed by normal weapons, but only if you strike a critical spot like the head or neck?
Question 3: Or as in Carag's case and Q****fer's first killing, that Helghasts are more suceptible to weapons of black steel, since these are made in the Darklands?
Thanks
|
|
|
Post by Sarra on Jun 7, 2004 16:18:18 GMT
I have always wondered this as well. I always assumed that no normal weapon could even slow down a Helghast let alone kill one. When Q****** was bathing and then killed the Heghast I was very, very confused. In the end I just assumed this to be yet another mistake of the Legends series.
If you go by the normal LW series, your normal weapon isn't going to do jack. This is what I always assumed. Whenever there are conflictions between Lone Wolf and Legends I typically go with Lone Wolf.
|
|
|
Post by Archdruid on Jun 7, 2004 21:59:51 GMT
Well, Q*nefer clearly doesn't have to abide by the rules of Aon, as we've discussed before.
|
|
|
Post by Relenoir on Jun 8, 2004 2:42:29 GMT
That was always my rationale behind these Helghasts being injured and killed. I figured since the black steel and the Helghasts were created in the Darklands, that it would transcend the supernatural immunity to most weapons that the Helghasts normally possess. Magicians should be able to affect/destroy Helghasts with magical spells; after all, isn't it a magic-user who would create a magic weapon? Of course, in Dawn of the Darklords, the mini-adventure in the Magnamund Companion that you play as Banedon, your spells are of no use against a Helghast that you encounter for causing it injury. In my game, I allow damaging magic spells to affect Helghasts just like magic weapons would.
|
|
|
Post by outspaced on Jun 8, 2004 7:43:51 GMT
Of course, in Dawn of the Darklords, the mini-adventure in the Magnamund Companion that you play as Banedon, your spells are of no use against a Helghast that you encounter for causing it injury. In my game, I allow damaging magic spells to affect Helghasts just like magic weapons would. Not yet possessing a copy of the official RPG (*grumblegrumble*) I can't say anything for definite, but while I'd say that Helghast can be hurt by magic, I'd consider giving them spell immunity (i.e. the spellcaster must be at least xth level, or the spells must be of xth level before they can affect Helghast) or straight-out spell resistance of about 30%. They don't have loads of ENDURANCE points, but they don't need to since very few people can hurt them. And unless anyone can point out anything in the canon gamebook series that indicates Darkland Black Steel can affect Helghast, I'd say it can't--of course, in an individual's RPG, they can make up the rules, so I'm only speculating and putting forwad my own opinions here!
|
|
|
Post by Drear on Jun 8, 2004 8:09:23 GMT
My guess is:
Magnamund began as a AD&D world.
Helghasts are immune to non-magic weapons.
The catch-phrase in AD&D for this was '+1 or better to hit', meaning you needed a magical weapon of +1 or higher enchantment to do damage at all to the monster.
All things considered, that should have changed with the new edition of D&D. Things now have 10/magic, for example, meaning a weapon that is not magic does 10 less damage total. At least that's my guess.
|
|
|
Post by Peregrine on Jun 8, 2004 22:29:21 GMT
www.projectaon.org/xhtml/lw/02fotw/sect220.htmThat would rather solve the Magic Spear problem, if black steel can harm a Helghast. Yet you're not even the choice of taking it, and I doubt it's because our hero declines to use a Darkland blade (like the Dagger of Vashna or Helshezag?) It's not proof of anything, but it certainly indicates to me that Joe Dever had no intention of black steel being able to damage Helghast.
|
|
|
Post by SuperNovice on Jun 11, 2004 20:12:05 GMT
I've never read the Legends books so I could be mistaken.
Based on the interview with the Legends series's author that was linked here, I would say that he either didn't know or didn't care. Staying true to the history and setting of the world he was writing for does seem to be a little low on his scale of priorities. It seems more likely that he simply ignored the 'rules' whenever they got in the way of his artistic talent.
|
|
|
Post by outspaced on Jun 11, 2004 23:24:31 GMT
It seems more likely that he simply ignored the 'rules' whenever they got in the way of his artistic talent. No, more likely he ignored the rules whenever they got in the way of his beloved Mary Sues. < Ducks back into the shadows with a maniacal laugh.>
|
|
|
Post by Sarra on Jun 12, 2004 0:49:42 GMT
After the huge differences in power between Legends Vonotar and LW Vonotar, and the addition of people like Qinefer, and the fact that he totally messed up the Helgasts...I wonder. How much involvment did Joe Dever have in the creation of Legends? It seams like he just walked up to John Grant, dropped the books in his lap and said,"have fun!"
|
|
|
Post by SuperNovice on Jun 12, 2004 7:15:26 GMT
No, more likely he ignored the rules whenever they got in the way of his beloved Mary Sues. < Ducks back into the shadows with a maniacal laugh.> What exactly is a Mary Sue? I've seen that term used before on this board but have never seen it anywhere else. P.S. I probably should have put artistic talent in quotes in my first post. I was being a bit facetious.
|
|
|
Post by The Wytch-King on Jun 12, 2004 11:58:49 GMT
What exactly is a Mary Sue? Take a look here, that should help ... The Wytch-King
|
|
|
Post by SuperNovice on Jun 12, 2004 22:24:23 GMT
Take a look here, that should help ... The Wytch-King haha. I guess I'm not the only one to ask that question. I have a follow-up though. Does that apply only to female characters or can that apply to either sex? I'm referring to the tendency of some authors to make all their central characters overly powerful? *coughcough*DavidEddings*coughcough*
|
|
|
Post by outspaced on Jun 12, 2004 23:22:43 GMT
Does that apply only to female characters or can that apply to either sex? I'm referring to the tendency of some authors to make all their central characters overly powerful? *coughcough*DavidEddings*coughcough* Ah, the much more rarely seen (though equally obnoxious) . . . Gary Stu! (And no, I didn't make that up--it's the recognised term of derision for a male Mary Sue. Because although it's pronounced very differently, it's spelled almost identically! )
|
|
|
Post by Storm Dancer on Jun 13, 2004 3:04:43 GMT
Somewhere near the Earth's mantle, there's a vast subterranean library stuffed full of outspaced's secret fanfic writings.
Few know of its existence. Fewer still are granted access.
And no-one can read a word of it, 'cos the lights have gone.
|
|