|
|
Post by beowuuf on Jul 18, 2010 7:54:52 GMT
So if you get the correct random number you don't have to fight? Thus meaning you can beat the book without getting into a single combat?
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jul 18, 2010 20:43:25 GMT
Ugh, why do people keep repeating that falsehood? There is no path that is 100% combat-free. The best you can do is funnel yourself to a section where, if you have Camouflage, you have a 50/50 chance of fighting a Giak + Doomwolf. See www.projectaon.org/en/xhtml/lw/01fftd/sect303.htmI hate to contradict you, but just because you have to rely on chance somewhat to do it, doesn't mean it is a falsehood. You *can* beat the book without a single combat. period. Just like you can beat a Kalkoth without getting damaged (killed). You just have to be lucky! |
|
|
|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Jul 20, 2010 9:36:01 GMT
I guess I should have said this up-front, but I'm basically trying to match Kamikaze Thompson's no-healing, low-stats, no-restarts run. I'm almost to the point where I don't think it's actually possible due to the sheer number of good RNG picks it needs. That took me about 70 to 80 tries to do it deathless- about 15 of which were just failing at that Camouflage roll in Book 1 to avoid all combats. I'm a professional lunatic, and knew I was attempting something beyond sanity. Book 5 was the real horror, as I took the near-suicidal route of getting the Jeweled Mace from the Yas. Getting that far and having to restart from book one (twice making it to Haakon only to restart) was just an exercise in my own stubbornness. Hardcore isn't too hard- it's furthering it with such a self-imposed challenge that makes it painfully so. Prepare for headaches and heartbreak galore if you keep trying. But, once I did it, I felt like I just climbed Everest, so I thought it was worth it in the end. Word of advice, in case you don't already do so, always keep a 2-handed weapon handy- it helps not taking any damage in that first round, especially for the mounted one-round ones, Ice Barbarian on skis, and when trying to run. Good luck if you keep trying, you're going to need it ;-) The next version of Seventh Sense will let you adjust your inital scores downward, all the way to 5/15 intial stats, for what kamikaze called "Ultimate difficulty". He quite possibly is the only one who will ever succesfully attempt it! Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I doubt it will be a deathless run so I can maintain what sanity I do have. LOL |
|
|
|
Post by Phone Wolf on Jul 20, 2010 18:20:13 GMT
Book 5 was the real horror, as I took the near-suicidal route of getting the Jeweled Mace from the Yas. Ugh. I won't call you crazy and instead just say I admire your tenacity.  When did you drink the Kalte Alether? |
|
|
|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Jul 20, 2010 19:58:28 GMT
I didn't drink that one- There were no battles after I got it in Book 3, Book 4 I only had two one-round combats, so no need in either. The times I would've been tempted to use it I couldn't in book 5- Palace Gaoler and Yas (won against the Yas with 1 EP left). The Drakkar was just a 3 round survival game, so nothing to worry about. I got a little overconfident and opted for the +1 CR VS the Dhorgaan by drinking a normal Alether, but it payed off, though it was a bit closer than I would've liked (yet again, won with 1 EP to spare).
|
|
|
|
Post by Phone Wolf on Jul 21, 2010 17:31:54 GMT
It's not enough that even after a year yours is the only 10/20 hardcore survivor run without Healing. No, you had to go and do it without Weaponskill or Mindblast, and without drinking the Kalte Alether... I take it back. You're officially crazy. ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jul 21, 2010 18:00:45 GMT
Yeah, I'm seriously considering putting that run in its own category at the top of the Hardcore hall of fame. Purple text or something. It really is in a league of its own.
|
|
|
|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Jul 22, 2010 12:07:15 GMT
Inflating my king-sized ego, eh? LOL
Seriously, I'm flattered, though I have a suggestion. A section for those who pulled off a trick-shot on it- rewarding those who pull off a deathless run with a self-imposed challenge on top of it all. Prerequisites I was thinking of were:
CS <=12, EP <=22, along with No healing -OR- No CS boost disciplines -OR- not having all 3 disciplines.
and, with the new feature you're adding on the next release, you could also include:
CS < 9, EP < 19, regardless of Discipline selection- even at 8/18, that would be a feat no matter what you choose.
Also, a similar section for By-The-Book play for those who do a deathless with 5/15 would be awesome- even with the SS at full-power, most of that is eaten up just reaching the base CS, making it a brutal challenge in its own right.
|
|
|
|
Post by Phone Wolf on Jul 23, 2010 15:37:00 GMT
It would also be neat to take fewer than five Disciplines. It'd be fun to try an 'Average Joe' hardcore run with zero Disciplines. I haven't put any serious thought into it but off the top of my head I can't think of anywhere in the first five books where you'd necessarily get stuck. I may have to try it without Seventh Sense, just to see.
|
|
|
|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Jul 23, 2010 16:22:59 GMT
It would also be neat to take fewer than five Disciplines. It'd be fun to try an 'Average Joe' hardcore run with zero Disciplines. I haven't put any serious thought into it but off the top of my head I can't think of anywhere in the first five books where you'd necessarily get stuck. I may have to try it without Seventh Sense, just to see. Actually, I did request a 3 discipline option a while ago, along with the modified weapon rules that currently can only be used in custom mode, and using a 5-14/15-24 starting stat range. That's where Dave got my "Ultimate Difficulty" idea from, something I'd still like to see implemented at some point, though I'd be just as glad to see what goodies are already planned for the next release I would think an "Average Joe" Lone Wolf could only exist in the Kai series, especially with the enemies and challenges in Book 6 and on. Choosing any three out of Weapon Skill, Tracking, Camouflage, or Hunting would give it more of an "Average Joe" feel, depending if you want the extra 2 CS or not. With how those Disciplines are used in the Kai series, it's not too far off from what real medieval skills could be picked up by a layman. Also, with the further restricted stats, it would further the feel, since it would play like a simple farmer received some monastic training and this was the result. For the MK and GM series, it would only make sense he would hone those three skills further, especially considering the fantasy world of Magnamund- so a "legendary peasant" would follow. It's kind of why I was hoping it would be implemented- though I'd definitely try to up my stats as an "Average Joe," saving a low-stat run for disciplines that would give me a better edge. *EDIT* Come to think of it, since it will be possible to lower your stats anyways, perhaps just leaving it as a random number like in BtB rules would help, since only an elite few would want to even attempt a 3 Discipline run with even a 14/24, and fewer would be able to complete it. Then again, using the modified weapon rules, things could be compensated for with Named Weapons. |
|
|
|
Post by Phone Wolf on Jul 24, 2010 17:22:06 GMT
Well, if you made it through Book 5 without taking any Disciplines, you'd have to assume LW learns all ten from the Book of the Magnakai, since the text in Books 6-12 frequently refers to knowledge of the basic Kai Disciplines and has LW exercising them without giving you any choice in the matter.
So there's no real reason why you wouldn't be free to choose whichever Disciplines you wanted at the beginning of Book 6. Of course, you could certainly restrict yourself to choosing three of Weaponmastery, Pathmanship, Invisibility, and Huntmastery; maybe Average Joe LW just doesn't have the necessary background to advance in any other skills.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jul 25, 2010 21:32:03 GMT
Average Joe LW just doesn't have the necessary background to advance in any other skills. I wonder how Joe Dever feels about being called average so often... (j/k) (I think we all agree Joe Dever is above average. He must be from Lake Wobegone) |
|
|
|
Post by norshire on Jul 27, 2010 4:38:58 GMT
So if you get the correct random number you don't have to fight? Thus meaning you can beat the book without getting into a single combat? And if you roll enough 0s, you can win the entire series without ever losing a single EP in combat. Either way, it's still about random die rolls rather than player's choices. I hate to contradict you, but just because you have to rely on chance somewhat to do it, doesn't mean it is a falsehood. You *can* beat the book without a single combat. period. Just like you can beat a Kalkoth without getting damaged (killed). You just have to be lucky! "You can beat the book without any combats" implies to me "if you make the right choices, you won't have to fight" which isn't true. You're still at the mercy of the RNG, which is the point I've been trying to make FOR THIS ENTIRE THREAD. |
|
|
|
Post by kamikaze1900666 on Jul 27, 2010 7:38:28 GMT
"You can beat the book without any combats" implies to me "if you make the right choices, you won't have to fight" which isn't true. You're still at the mercy of the RNG, which is the point I've been trying to make FOR THIS ENTIRE THREAD. The RNG is part of what makes most any RPG challenging- much like the way everything is out to kill you on a game like "I Wanna Be The Guy," though thats more of a test on your reflexes. Homebrew rules for D&D I played with often had a roll of 20 being an auto-critical, or auto legendary feat success, and a roll of 1 being an auto legendary fail. Even on games like Final Fantasy, there's usually that chance you miss during a critical moment during the battle- regardless if you're max-stats with the best weapons or not. Playing as many games as I have over the years, including the self-imposed challenges I've done on a few of them, I just take it as a given that the designer of the game will throw whatever wrench in my plans that they can. In the case of Lone Wolf, Dever made the RNT different in each book- sometimes allowing for a greater chance of success, other times not. One of the things I enjoy about Seventh Sense is the fact that I can't just pick the same general area I usually do, often scoring a roll I want- its RNG picks where I'm going to land on the roll, increasing the overall challenge. It is possible to have a zero combat run Lone Wolf books 1 and 3, just as it is possible to beat "I Wanna Be The Guy" with less than 50 deaths, complete any normal stage on "Mega Man" with blaster only and taking no damage, or beat "Final Fantasy" with a Thief solo or a lowest level possible Knight solo. Yet, these are self-imposed challenges, and those undertaking them know there's going to be a large margin of failure- either their reflexes might not be 100% when they need it, or the RNG won't be as kind as they would like. In any case, I've seen the "impossible" done on a great many games, and have attempted it myself- sometimes succeeding, however most times giving up because I realize its beyond my skill level, or beyond my patience's limits. |
|
