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Post by egleris on Aug 20, 2010 23:25:29 GMT
That's an interesting idea, but I think it would need to modify the text of the books to work. Remember, the purpose of the thread is to modify the discipline in such a way that they could be used on the P. Aon version of the text as it is now. After you win a fight, the consequences are quite clear on the book and sometimes you can't just assume you managed to evade, as then the following development would make no sense. (Think the flying fighter in LW 4 or Shinzar in LW 10... and that's not even going in fight like Chaos Master, Targazin or Khima. How does a new player distinguish where he can escape and where he can't beforehand?)
Though I could see Invisibility (or even Camouflage, if we want to boost it) allowing you to bypass the "LW only" damage the text say you should take when it allow you to escape combat. Was that what you were thinking? That could be implemented with no problem, though I don't think it's a very good bonus.
Also, nobody commented on my previous suggestion fo the damage-free round (upped to two for the second half of the magnakai series). Did anybody think it would be good? It's too much? Any opinion (including negative ones) I would be curious to hear!
Lastly, did nobody had any better idea for AC? I checked LW 8, and the Vordak jumped down from the kraan to fight, so no help there.
I'm starting to think that some ability (Nexus maybe? Or Huntmastery?) should give you the chance to increase damage dealt to undead if you're not using the sommerswerd; it's ridicolous that book 8 can't be played as a standalone. Or book 11, for that matter.
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Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 21, 2010 0:13:57 GMT
Here's an idea for invisiblity. How about you can automatically flee combats. No one round of damage. That's not too much of an increase, but it would help low stat LWs avoid damage by fleeing from everyone. Makes sense too. Kinda hard to hit someone if they just disappear on you. He can't just disappear right in front of people straight from the get-go, but no damage for the first round of combat does make sense (blurred outline, appear ultra-intimidating, etc.). This could be extended to the first two rounds at Scion-kai, since improved disciplines play a greater role in the Magnakai series. Come to think of it, that may make it a little unbalanced, so perhaps 1/2 damage for the first round (first two rounds at Scion-kai) might be a bit more plausible. If the enemy scores an auto-kill in a half-damage round, LW receives 8 damage instead of dieing. I'm starting to think that some ability (Nexus maybe? Or Huntmastery?) should give you the chance to increase damage dealt to undead if you're not using the sommerswerd; it's ridicolous that book 8 can't be played as a standalone. Or book 11, for that matter. Book 8 is actually fairly easy as a stand-alone, as long as you remember to pick up Paido's sword when it's offered. Book 11 is trickier: you can fight the Chaos Master at -5 CR, but the villains are the forced -11 CR fight for a stand-alone. You can kill a god easier than you can slay a handful of scoundrels- go figure.
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Post by johntfs on Aug 21, 2010 9:05:04 GMT
Book 8 is pretty easy as a standalone until the final fight with two Vordaks. If you don't have the Sommerswerd, you have to kill them in a total of 4 Combat Rounds or your ship explodes and you die.
Killing a god is easier when you have a sword specifically designed for that purpose.
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Post by egleris on Aug 21, 2010 11:23:06 GMT
Yeah, Paido's sword didn't give you any bonus, and as the footnote in the section explain, you need a CS of 19 just to have a reasonable chance of winning. Any roll lower than that and it become incredibly difficult, lower than 14 is literally impossible (as in, you got 0 in every round and still don't win). And keep in mind, the CS used for the calculation add a bonus of 9 from combined battle-oriented disciplines and the only Alether found in the book. That's not reasonable.
Half-damage suggestion seems interesting. I think someody should playtest it in... let's say book 10, taking the battle route? Whit the Sommerswerd along, to have an idea how much it would help.
As for the chaos-master, Khima, and other such difficult battle, I do have a suggestio that could help solve the problems there and make logical sense. I'm sure somebody already thought of it, but I never seen it proposed, so here I go.
We know Lone Wolf got his new discipline by absorbing the lorestone, right? Then, I say, what if instead of adding one discipline when the book ends - as we do now - we promote Lone Wolf in the section he grasp the lorestone and recover to top Endurance?
This would mean that Lone Wolf would face the major boss of several books (7, 8, 9, 11) with an higher chance of winning; I know many people wanted the Archmaster's improvement for the fight against the Chaos-Master. Also, having one discipline added in LW 9 woul allow access to different Lore Circles combinations.
Anybody thoughts on this?
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Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 21, 2010 12:33:30 GMT
Love the new job, just getting used to first shift after 3 years on third has been a bit rough Anyways... I honestly believe Kimah and CM really shouldn't be considered for balancing the disciplines. Even if you bring along the Sommerswerd in book 9, there is a path where it becomes "misplaced" for the rest of the book, thus causing Kimah to have 34 CS. Even as a stand-alone, you can reach that fight at a -7 CR: just out of the AK range. Even if you bring the Sommerswerd into the fight, it is possible to face him at a +2 CR without using the Kalte Alether. The two Vordaks at the end of Book 8 are quite possible in a stand-alone fashion- it is possible to reach them at a +7 CR: needing to score two rolls for each of 7 or higher, and with 0 being an AK, it's tricky but far from impossible. The CM is only downright evil if you bring along the Sommerswerd, though it is possible to reach that fight at a +1 CR if you do. Of course, this really makes the villains a cake-walk at a potential +6 CR (as opposed to the -11 CR no matter what you do as a stand-alone). Using these fights alone to argue how to balance the disciplines makes little sense to me- they're "boss fights," and thus are supposed to be harder. Balancing overall battles makes more sense, and with these fights actually consisting of about 5%, give or take a couple percentage points, of all combats, placing such focus on them makes the game more unbalanced in the player's favor. ______________________ Rant over Back to an original idea: Principalins with Animal Control are able to call on a woodland animal (if nearby) to aid them in combat. Since we keep track of wastelands for use of Hunting, and this function is only used to avoid fights (albeit a seldom occurrence), would it make sense to offer a +1 CS if LW is near a woodland setting (or at least not in a wasteland). I don't know about you, but I'd be momentarily distracted if a chipmunk ran up my arm in a fight- brush it off just in time to attempt a half-parry. Since this ability gets another boost at Archmaster rank, you could remove the restriction to make it always active then (there's got to be some form of wildlife in the Darklands to provide the Drakkar some sport, right?) Also, one thing about the Lorecircle bonuses- I really do think they should be replaced with a +1 CS, +2 EP per completed book. I liked the way it didn't force my choices in the GM series, and it is one feature I'm looking forward to in Seventh Sense. Played through the MK series that way, and you only get one more CS and EP than you'd get with the normal bonuses, so it's not unbalancing it too much. Another option would be to nerf the Lorcircle of Spirit's bonus and divvy it out. It already is top-heavy: Psi-surge +4 CS, Psi-screen and Nexus are excellent defense. So a +1 CS, +3 EP does make sense to balance it out, since these are only psychic skills, and just how many moves ahead can you actually focus to see with Divination in the heat of battle? I'd say knowing how to heal something means you know how to harm it, and studying animals means you should know their weak points, so a +1 CS, +3 EP makes sense for the Circle of Light. Solaris seems appropriate as-is: +1 CS. +3 EP. However, you have two melee-heavy Disciplines in the Circle of Fire, offering increased speed and reflexes along with higher proficiency with weapons and better unarmed combat, so a +2 CS, +2 EP makes sense (plus -1 for +1 makes it self-balancing). Of course, this is just playing with the CS-side of these bonuses, it could be further tweaked by altering the EP side as well, so not everyone goes stampeding towards the circle of Fire (ie- possibly no EP bonus for Fire, and a +4 EP bonus for Light and Spirit).
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Post by altwren on Aug 21, 2010 15:53:57 GMT
My idea was only for circumstances he could evade in. You know: If you win, turn to X. If you want to evade after 2 rounds, turn to Y. Now he wouldn't have to roll a third round of damage for himself if he evaded on the third round with Invisiblity. He just automatically gets away. So yeah, it wouldn't change fights like Kimah and CM at all.
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Post by egleris on Aug 21, 2010 16:33:50 GMT
The two Vordaks at the end of Book 8 are quite possible in a stand-alone fashion- it is possible to reach them at a +7 CR: needing to score two rolls for each of 7 or higher, and with 0 being an AK, it's tricky but far from impossible. I already said that if you had CS 19, the battle was winnable (because CS 19 is the only way you get a CR of +6 and +7 in that battle). Try to roll 13, or even just 15, an try again, would you? As for invisibility I think that's a good idea, Altwren, but isn't it a bit too weak? I like the idea of the AC CS bonus becoming more general. So it helps when fighting in woodlands... I would say a +2, though. It's underused as it is, if we want to balance it we have to be generous. As for the lorecircles, I say to remove the Lorecircle of light completely. It makes no thematic sense anyway, and this way we can modify the other lorecircle like this: LC of fire (Combat oriented disciplines): +3 CS, +1 END Weaponmastery, Hunmastery (increased agility), Curing (heal midbattle) LC of Solaris (nature oriented disciplines): +2 CS, +6 END Huntmastery, Invisibility, Pathsmanship, Animal Control LC of Spirit (psychic disciplines): +4 CS, +4 END Divination, Psi-Surge, Psi-Screen, Nexus Now only two lore circles out of three can be completed instead of three out of four (unless using my other suggestion of gaining the new skill when you pick up the lorestone, that would make you face the last book with all 12 disciplines), but the bonus from each lorecircles is higher and Spirit is not obligatory but still worth taking over Solaris.
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Post by johntfs on Aug 21, 2010 17:33:02 GMT
You know, ot occurs to me that you could take a "halfsie" approach and assume that you get promoted to Archmaster after finding the first Lorestone in Book 11 and then gain your new Discipline at the end of Book 11 when you find your final Lorestone.
That way you could, in fact, use that Curing Bonus when fighting the Chaos-master (or the Villains).
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Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 21, 2010 17:40:26 GMT
LC of fire (Combat oriented disciplines): +3 CS, +1 END Weaponmastery, Hunmastery (increased agility), Curing (heal midbattle) LC of Solaris (nature oriented disciplines): +2 CS, +6 END Huntmastery, Invisibility, Pathsmanship, Animal Control LC of Spirit (psychic disciplines): +4 CS, +4 END Divination, Psi-Surge, Psi-Screen, Nexus Now only two lore circles out of three can be completed instead of three out of four (unless using my other suggestion of gaining the new skill when you pick up the lorestone, that would make you face the last book with all 12 disciplines), but the bonus from each lorecircles is higher and Spirit is not obligatory but still worth taking over Solaris. Wow that really throws everything into the player's favor, and requires rewriting the books themselves (since several options are Lore-Circle Dependant). At the start of the GM series, the max boost from all Lore-Circles is +5 CS, +11 EP- using the +1/+2 variant it would become +7 CS, +14 EP. Though your EP side is balanced to reflect the written method, the CS side really lop-sides the bonus into a +9 CS- and you can attain a +7 CS by book 10. Most fights would be at a "why bother?" CR, almost guaranteeing a +11 or higher for a playthrough. Even Kimah and the Chaos Master would be laughable with such boosts, even considering low-stat runs.
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Post by egleris on Aug 21, 2010 18:44:41 GMT
And if you check, you can't have the +9 until the end of book 12.
the +7 you can have at the start of book 10, yes. The point is, you won't have the third lorecircle. Ever. You only got two, so it's not as lopsided as it seems. And you'll have to have played book 9 at a lower level. By the start of book 11, you'll either have +7 CS +5 END, +6 CS +10 END, or +5 CS +7 END. The latter is the least powerful, but you can get it before the others; and the bonus you normally have at the start of book 12 was +5 CS +8 END, not that far away from my suggestion. I'm simply making it accesible sooner, so as to make all the disciplines valide choices.
There's only one check in book 6 when it ask if you have the lorecircle of Solaris, and since it tells which disciplines you have to have, you could just read that as "if you have pathsmanship, huntmastery and invisibility"; from book 7, you can have each lorecircle completed (though no more than one), and I don't know if it ever ask you to check for the LC of light, but you could probably use solaris for that. Does anybody know what the lorecircle of light should symbolize, anyway? If somebody know, an alternative 3-discipline version of it could be made esily, I think, while keeping it so that the bonus mantain the same balance.
If it still seems to much ater my remark that you only got two lorecircle bonus, Fire could be brought down to +2 CS, +1 END; that woudl make the major bonus either +4 CS +7 END, +6 CS +5 END, +6 CS +10 END. It would make the third option far better than the other two (while in my version there was competition), but mantain a good advantage. And remember, the bonus of the series as it's now is +5 CS +8 END. I'm just for having the bonus being accesible before book 11, not after. Which my system grant.
To notice is that the Fire+Solaris bonus you have without Psi-surge, and the Solaris+Spirit bonus you have without Weapon Mastery. You always have one or the other, but only with Fire+Spirit you have both. That mean they're not as good as they appear, and that there's still strategy involved when picking out of the Loreciles you completed.
Whit that in mind, I would have a suggested modify that include the Lorecircle of light:
LC of fire (Combat oriented disciplines): +3 CS, +0 END Weaponmastery, Hunmastery (increased agility), Curing (heal midbattle)
LC of Solaris (nature oriented disciplines): +2 CS, +5 END Huntmastery, Invisibility, Pathsmanship, Animal Control
LC of Spirit (psychic disciplines): +3 CS, +4 END Divination, Psi-Surge, Psi-Screen, Nexus
LC of Light (self-understanding): +0 CS, +3 END Psi-Surge, Animal Control, Curing
This mean:
Book 6: either F or L Book 7: either F, L, S or SP Book 8: either F+L (CS+3, END+3), S or SP Book 9: either F+L, F+S (CS+5, END+5), L+S (CS+3, END +8) or L+SP (CS+3, END +7) Book 10: same as book 9 or F+SP (CS+6, END+4) or F+L+S (CS+5, END+8) Book 11: same as book 10 or F+L+SP (CS+6, END +7) or S+SP (CS+5, END +9) Book 12: same as book 11 or S+SP+L (CS+5, END+12)
So the main combinations are just CS+5 END+ 5 (F+S from book 9), CS+6 END+4 (F+SP from book 10) and CS+5 END+9 (S+SP from book 11), each one of wich can be improved on the END side by learning the Lorecircle of Light, with no chance of gaining all three of the CS improving ones. Maybe this is a more balanced setup.
Also, why do not consider a low-stat run? It shouldn't be impossible to do a low-stat run if one want to. After all, rolling two 9 is not the most common result in character creation.
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Post by pi4t on Aug 21, 2010 22:42:56 GMT
But you will have the third lorecircle in the GM series. What I had in mind was rather than changing when you get disciplines, changing what they do (including lorecircles, etc). Perhaps invisibility could be used to sneak up on someone and deal 20 damage, or something. This could only be used once, ever, but an upgrade might give an extra use, and another upgrade might give another. This would help a fair amount against the 'bosses'. (That wasn't necessarily a suggestion, just an example of what I had in mind, redesign the disciplines so that they are more powerful when facing the bosses.
Perhaps a discipline could prevent the bottom 2 CRT columns from being used, preventing instant deaths. -7 and below would all be covered by the -7 to -8 column.
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Post by egleris on Aug 21, 2010 23:13:54 GMT
Book 13 in the GM Series has very hard fights anyway... then again, that could be compensated by forbidding some more gear to transplant; the original bonus was CS+5, in this case it would be CS+8... let's say the Silver Helmet can't be brought to the GM series, and it's done. Not that hard a problem to remedy, and this way, the lorecircles are more balanced.
Also, that to remove the autokill is an idea I like... how about having Invisibility give a +2 to Combat Rolls? Seriousy, that way if you roll 1 it become 3, and if you roll 2, it become 4. Anything higher than 9 will be treated as 0. It prevent the insta-death but will still have to use the -11 Combat Ratio column, meaning you still take more damage if you have a lower CS. It's exactly the kind of thing that help against bosses and doesn't matter against common foes.
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Post by pi4t on Aug 22, 2010 10:54:25 GMT
Yes, that's a good idea, but why doesn't it help against common foes?
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Post by kamikaze1900666 on Aug 22, 2010 14:34:14 GMT
It's a help against common foes, egleris was probably just stating that since the main purpose of common foes is to tick away at your EP before you hit a major battle, the boost left them in the same category.
Adjusting the roll by +2 from the get-go seems a bit much, since it negates much of the challenge, greatly increasing the chance LW will receive no damage on any round. A +1 to the roll at either Superior or Tutelary, and an increase to +2 at Principalin or Scion-kai may help balance it out.
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Post by egleris on Aug 22, 2010 16:27:17 GMT
Yes, that's what I meant.
I always forget that the Magnakai disciplines update as they go along! I agree, starting by +1 is better, and that already prevent the insta-kill at -9. Than the evolution will negate the insta-death also at -11. Very reasonable.
So, if I'm right, we have the modifies for Curing already ironed out, this suggestion for powering up Invisibility, and the suggestion of a +2 CS against every foes if you're in a woodland or jungle area for AC. Am I right?
And then obviously the suggestion for the Lorecircles.
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