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Post by bittermind on Feb 20, 2011 7:07:03 GMT
I'm withholding my vote while I think (aloud) about this one...
Book 13 is okay, though books that take place almost completely within one enemy stronghold tend to be less fun, I find. Plus the ludicrously difficult unavoidable insta-death at the end is just ridiculous, if you're in a non-cheaty mood.
Book 14: one enemy stronghold and insta-deaths.
Book 15: not bad. Nice and outdoorsy. Plus you get to wander round with a buddy. I forget what happens to Prarg. Does he die, like almost all of Lone Wolf's other pals? Maybe it's time for me to reread this one.
Book 16: this is one of the more memorable ones for me. Nice writing; nice change of direction mid-quest. Though, again, there's that unavoidable 'magic scanning' number pick, leading to an insta-death, and for which the Sommerswerd gives you something like -3 (no mention of Korlinium Scabbards, either).
Book 17: the playability issues never really came up when I was younger, and more blasé about cheating. Still never really caught my attention, though.
Book 18: not a bad book, though weirdly not very memorable. When I played it again recently, I didn't remember any of it. Which was kind of fun, in fact - almost like an undiscovered LW book.
Book 19: I really like Wolf's Bane as an antagonist. The book really felt quite balanced, and dangerous - and not in an arbitrarily silly way. Suffered a bit from all the jumping around from planet to planet (stories that take place on Magnamund are more fun, thanks). Not bad, though. Oh, but then there's Alyss, and the implication that she has to pull your fat out of the fire, in order for you to beat Wolf's Bane. I like it though.
Book 20: really, really linear. It could have been a novel in the second person. A bit anticlimactic, too ('Kekataag? Who's he?').
So, on reflection - and though it's actually pretty hard for me to pick out one that I like much more than all the rest - I think I'll go for.... Wolf's Bane.
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Post by leicsmac on Feb 20, 2011 8:52:05 GMT
Book 17 (along with Book 4) was the first LW novel that I read, way back in primary school when I had no idea what 'caution to the wind' meant and still remember my friends sarcastic remark when we took a -10 EP hit because of the aforementioned lack of knowledge. Of course, this didn't really matter because we cheated through most of it anyway.
As I got older and acquired the rest of the GM series (the only series of the four I was ever able to get all the books from) I realised how difficult Book 17 in fact is compared to the rest of them. However, purely because of the setting (I love the idea of Xaagon - a city frozen in time) and the opponent (Ixy is a massive challenge, shame he doesn't appear again), as well as the sentimental value it still holds with me...Book 17 is my favourite of the series.
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Post by ramthelinefeed on Feb 20, 2011 16:11:46 GMT
I just got killed in the Deathlord of Ixia *AGAIN* last night. Fell down a bloody hole in the Plane of Darkness after killing a Chaos Horde, only to have to bloody well fight them all AGAIN when I got out! Madness!
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Post by egleris on Feb 26, 2011 23:46:29 GMT
I think the two best books of the Gran Master series are 17 and 18; Deathlord of Ixia is the more challenging, while Dawn of the dragon is the more fun and the one with the best Lone Wolf feeling to it. I see them as a single saga, much like 1&2 are... I'll vote 17 because it's one vote behind right now, just so that they are on the same level, as I think they are.
That said... I must say, I never considered Wolf's Bane that interesting, but it's an interesting perspective to analyze it that way. If I may ask, Bittermind... what make the titular character a more interesting/dangerous opponent than the Deathlord or Cadak? Just me being curious here!
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Post by bittermind on Feb 28, 2011 7:39:26 GMT
I never really warmed to Cadak and Ixiataaga. Cadak seemed a bit of a post-Gnaag effort to create a recurring nemesis - and yet, I never got much of a sense of threat from him. He relies too heavily on minions and monsters (Exterminus in book 13, big bird/lizard thing in book 14). A capable enough magician, apparently - and yet Lone Wolf thoroughly beats him in books 13 and 14, and only his plot immunity from Dever-on-high allows him to escape. Always seemed more of a seething administrator to me, rather than a big bad in his own right.
I do like Cadak's cameo in book 20, however.
SPOILER: He can really kick Lone Wolf in the guts here, if you're trusting enough to believe him.
SPOILER END
Ixiataaga... Well, he has a much bigger role in Magnamundian history... and, certainly, he's got the Combat Skill to carry some threat weight of his own... but, for me, a couple of points go against him: a) his significance to Lone Wolf, personally, isn't so great. You never hear about him before book 17. He just shows up in one book - at the very end of the book, too - offers a ludicrously difficult fight, and then expires. Seems like pretty much every Fighting Fantasy baddie in the first ten books of the series.
And b)... well, he isn't really a person, is he? In terms of character, and personality, I mean, rather than lungs and fingers and a heartbeat and whatnot. Gnaag, for example, had a bit of bile in him. He was a schemer - and he was quite transparently afraid of Lone Wolf. Gnaag liked to chat, even if it was just to hurl threats across the skyline.
Ixiataaga just... shows up, fights, dies. Okay, he's evil... but you can be evil with a bit of class, y'know.
And then there's Wolf's Bane. What a b*****d. He poisons villagers - just for fun! He murders the little people for giggles! By the time we get to the Grandmaster Series, Lone Wolf seems ridiculously powerful - and still wielding his god-forged weapon, to boot. But in book 19, at last, we have an antagonist who truly seems his equal. Reading through this book for the first time, I really find myself trying to outguess Wolf's Bane, to anticipate his tricks and strategies. Do you follow him into the crypts below Toran, trusting your 10 GM Disciplines to protect you from harm? No; better to show some cunning for once, to find an alternative route in - to outmanoeuvre him, in fact. You have to think about how to fight him, rather than just blasting through a fortress full of minions. You can position yourself to have an advantage over him - and yet this requires prudence, scouting, forethought.
Mentally, physically, and in terms of supernatural abilities, Wolf's Bane really is on a par with Lone Wolf. The final combat against him, with a fixed Combat Ratio, is a great idea. It's a shame this device only appears towards the end of the GM series; some of Lone Wolf's earlier ludicrously difficult fights (Chaosmaster?) might have seemed a little more balanced if Mr Dever hadn't been setting Combat Skills by best-guessing at LW's deadliness.
If you cut Alyss, and limited the jumping around from world to world, Book 19: Wolf's Bane would be fantastic. As it is, it's pretty sterling stuff nonetheless.
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Post by egleris on Feb 28, 2011 7:54:13 GMT
I can understand what you're saying; I agree that the GM series doesn't actually offer any serious antagonist like Gnaag was - one of the many fault I find it. And yes, the fixed Combat Ratio in LW 19 was a very great idea, and I agree, it should have been used sooner, and later, far more often. Still, whenever I read Wolf's Bane, I can only think of how much of a wasted book it is. He spend the whole thing escaping and escaping without any reason to do so - was it really that hard to bring the rapiers around to challenge Lone Wolf as soon as they met? - and, of all the things he does against Sommerlund's people, we saw nothing but what's told us; it doesn't really match up with the sense of oppression the Darklords had, with how we were showed how very real their threat was in the Kai and Magnakai series. And the less said about the world hopping, the better. I agree that the idea in itself was good enough, but the application was really not well done to me. But I can see your point, and it's an interesting way to consider it... perhaps the next time I play it, I'll like the book more. Thank for sharing your opinions!
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Post by huanchoo on Feb 28, 2011 10:35:15 GMT
All of this is actually very common in famous works of fiction. The main villain dies in the original series, & the author/creator, seeing how successful the franchise is, thinks up another villain to continue the story. The fact is that now, with the beloved main villain dead & gone, we have a harder time adjusting (& even loving) the new baddie. It is just like Star Wars... Darth Vader was so iconic that Darth Maul & the Trade Federation seems so... distant... ;D
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Post by pi4t on Mar 7, 2011 22:54:19 GMT
Which is why in my face to face playthrough with a friend (similar to Zipp's, but not over the internet), I made a slight change which, I feel, improved the story immensely. With a bit of thought and roleplaying, it could be applied to 'normal' games too. It's quite simple: Vonotar wasn't killed by LW. You work out why. Anyway, after a while he got out of the Dazairn, maybe he found the Moonstone and gave it to Naar (explains that plot point), and quickly began doing what he did best. As by now he was infamous, he chose a new name, and began to worm his way into an evil organisation: in this case the Cener Druids. The new name he chose for himself? Cadak.
Of course, with this storyline LW recognises him easily when he sees him. It gives more of a point to the series: even more so than the first two, perhaps. No longer is it a 'you're evil, I'm good, I'll kill you' kind of battle, it's more personal. Vonotar/Cadak directly caused the destruction of the first order of Kai, and it's easy enough to imagine that LW isn't too happy with him!
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Post by egleris on Mar 7, 2011 23:09:51 GMT
That's a nice idea! I always thought Vonatar was orribly shortchanged by the books. And yes, he would have made a more compelling opponent for Lone Wolf in the GM series.
If I may ask, did you gave him a bigger part to play in the Daziarn during book 11? Just curious here, you know, seeing the different approach to the game. While I'm at it, did you killed him in 16, or keep him along a bit more?
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Post by pi4t on Mar 7, 2011 23:46:22 GMT
If you mean the Daziarn (!), then no, not exactly, but quite a lot of other stuff was happening at the time (my friend, who is playing a completely unrecognisable version of Banedon, while I play LW had just changed his entire body and powers!)
Yes, I've just killed him in book 16, but I'm hoping to do something unusual with his 'offer' in book 20, and let him come back!
Hmm, I could summarise what's happened so far, if people want. Our main objective is to have fun here, though, and it tends to be a bit mad.
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Post by egleris on Mar 7, 2011 23:54:17 GMT
Ehr... yes, I meant Daziarn. Probably got confused because of Zipp's having recently completed book 8 in the MSN game and I having read it all recently. Anyway, don't worry! I wasn't asking for a full summary, beside seeing the dimension of Zipp's thread and the amount of dedication it takes, I wouldn't ask somebody else to spend so much time to do the same! I was just curious about this idea you had on how to handling Vonotar. That's all.
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Post by ramthelinefeed on Mar 8, 2011 22:21:07 GMT
The fleshing out of Vonator in the Legends of Lone Wolf was one of the better aspects, I found (certainly loads better than bloody Quinfer!)
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Post by bittermind on Mar 13, 2011 16:21:30 GMT
My reading of the Legends books was somewhat patchy; if memory serves, Vonotar was born able-bodied, but fought with Alyss and came out of it somewhat battered, lame, and hunchbacked.
I once overheard Joe Dever mention that that definitely wasn't one of his ideas in creating the character. That was absolutely a John Grant-ism.
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Post by Wolfus on Mar 16, 2011 15:01:10 GMT
For me it will always be Darke Crusade. It seems to be very long adventure, with lots of epic moments and it is last LW book translated to czech language. Because of that this book is the reason, why I discovered Project Aon.
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Post by Zipp on Mar 25, 2011 8:25:51 GMT
Which is why in my face to face playthrough with a friend (similar to Zipp's, but not over the internet), I made a slight change which, I feel, improved the story immensely. With a bit of thought and roleplaying, it could be applied to 'normal' games too. It's quite simple: Vonotar wasn't killed by LW. You work out why. Anyway, after a while he got out of the Dazairn, maybe he found the Moonstone and gave it to Naar (explains that plot point), and quickly began doing what he did best. As by now he was infamous, he chose a new name, and began to worm his way into an evil organisation: in this case the Cener Druids. The new name he chose for himself? Cadak. Of course, with this storyline LW recognises him easily when he sees him. It gives more of a point to the series: even more so than the first two, perhaps. No longer is it a 'you're evil, I'm good, I'll kill you' kind of battle, it's more personal. Vonotar/Cadak directly caused the destruction of the first order of Kai, and it's easy enough to imagine that LW isn't too happy with him! That's a really interesting idea. I've been building up the Ceners so much in my version that I think by the time Book 13 rolls around, she'll be ready to fight them and it will mean more than maybe it did in the originals. Also, I really do like Cadak's character, and I think he's quite different from Vonotar. Vonotar is loudly arrogant and it actually makes him less imposing, I feel. He's kind've the classic twirl-my-beard-and-cackle evil sorceror. Cadak is like a super genius. He's more calculating, much more quiet about his plans, and has the quiet arrogance that I've seen many GMs and fan-writers incorporate into the Ceners as a whole. Cadak, in short, is the perfect spokesperson for the calm evil determination of the Ceners.
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