Something like dual weapons?

[Caran Rhun]

OK this might seem trivial.......but the alternate cover of FFtD pictures LW carving his way through numerous enemies with the axe he finds himself with at the beginning......however......strapped to his belt are also a dagger and sword......now whats that about more than two weapons? and yet the axe is clearly pictured as a two handed weapon anyway........
Any thoughts.....?

[Black Cat]

Dual weapon system...for more info, look at these threads:
projectaon.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1097878441
and
projectaon.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1096453382

Hope it helps.

[Frying Pan]

Generally, I don't modify explicit rules in the text just because I saw different on a pretty picture.

[Zipp]

And anyways, that's not Lone Wolf. It's, um, Alyss. Pretending to be Lone Wolf.

[Peregrine]

*aims a kick at the dead horse* ;D

Are the rules really that explicit? See I've been thinking... seems to me that it's possible to come up with a reading that follows the letter of the rules (well, mostly) and also obeys logic when it comes to carrying stacks of weapons and weapon-like Special Items (and also implies some things about dual weapons into the bargain).

We're told right from the start that weapons are carried in the hand - that is, the two weapon slots are what you hold in your two hands. Now, you won't always be holding your weapons, and indeed there is frequent mention of them being carried elsewhere (especially with special items). So the weapons/special items divide is no longer a problem.

Now, the first slight reinterpretation of the rules that this implies is that there is no longer a difference between weapons and weapon-like special items. When you want to use the Sommerswerd, it goes in your hand (which is the weapon slot), and so the axe you've got there has to take its place in your belt (conventionally a special item slot).

Secondly, this implies that dual weapons are actually an intended effect. You have two hand slots and both can hold weapons. Taking a literal reading of the Weaponskill rules ("When you enter combat carrying this weapon...", cf "You cannot carry more than 2 weapons" in the same section), you get a Weaponskill bonus for either weapon (both, if they're the same type, I suppose). Two-handed weapons would take up both hand slots, though. (This makes the one-handed wield ability in the New Order series actually useful.)

Thirdly, a shield now becomes in effect a weapon-like special item. It takes up a hand slot, after all. It also allows you to get +2CS from your second hand when you only have Weaponskill and haven't found two weapons. And this explains away another quirk of the series: Grand Master Lone Wolf no longer uses a shield, because he can get a better result from using an actual weapon there instead.

So there you have it. Except for the weapons/special items nondistinction, it follows the rules. Thoughts?

[Ghost Bear Not Logged In]

I'd never considered the bit about weapons being carried in the hand (as specified by the rules).

A well thought out post, that makes considerable sense. I use dual weapons anyway, but your ideas go a long way to justifying it.

Good one

-GB

[Sol]

Here's what you want:

Sommerswerd AND Helshezag! That would be SWEET... assuming you are a Grandmaster (which you probably are if you have both) you could have:

+8 for Sommerswerd
+5 for Helshezag
+5 Grande WeaponMastery Bonus for Sommerswerd
+5 Grande WeaponMastery Bonus for Helshezag
----------------------------------------
If you do what I do, an additional:

+4 WeaponMastery Bonus for Sommerswerd
+4 WeaponMastery Bonus for Helshezag
----------------------------------------
And if you were VERY lucky with your initial rolls in books 1-5:

+2 Weaponskill Bonus (sword) for Sommerswerd
+2 Weaponskill Bonus (sword) for Helshezag

That's a +35 to CS. To make it fair, a shield is disallowed when using two weapons.

Also, you can only use 2 weapons at a time... no using the Jeweled Mace (Special Item) or Dagger of Vashna (also special) while using these two swords... that would just become very wrong very fast.

Sol

[Frying Pan]

Why even bother to keep track of your stats if you're going to give yourself bonuses up the wazoo? Just go ahead and win every fight automatically, already.

[columbob]

Frying said:

Why even bother to keep track of your stats if you're going to give yourself bonuses up the wazoo? Just go ahead and win every fight automatically, already.

I think Sol was kidding. Otherwise, then .

[Ghost Bear]

I play with the dual weapon system, but I don't add cumulative bonuses... For instance, Weaponskill + Weaponmastery + Grand Weaponmastery can't be added together to get +11.

My 'house rule' goes thus:

No dual wielding in the Kai series at all - you're just not good enough yet.

You can start dual wielding in the Magnakai series, gaining a +3 for each weapon you wield that you're skilled with. You can wield weapons that give CS bonuses.

This rises to +4 per weapon at Scion Kai, and this rises to +5 per weapon with Grand Mastery.

So in theory, I could have +23 from weapons (+10 from dual wielding with Grand Weaponmastery, +8 from Sommerswerd and +5 from Helshezaag).

In truth, I only have +18 since Helshezag stays in safe keeping.

-GB

[Sol]

I was kidding, but only sort of...

At present, I do allow myself to keep the WeaponMastery +4 in addition to the GrandMastery +5. That's for a couple of reasons:

A) the book explicitly states (ie book 13):
"If you have completed any of the previous adventures (books 1-12), you can carry your current scores of Combat Skill and Endurance points over to Book 13. These scores may include Weaponmastery, Curing, and Psi-Surge bonuses."

So I take the full bonus. Psi-Surge is a little different since Kai Surge says you can't use both at once.

B) Creatures like this one (in book 13):

Degradon: CS 49, EP 36
3 Ruel Giganite: CS 50, EP 80

My CS is 46 (50 If I use Psi-Surge) and these become pretty hard fights. I can't imagine fighting these guys at a -9 or -5 after being through all the books.

C) maybe I am just sour at losing my Bronin Vest and Shield when entering the GrandMaster series.

------------------------

Now, I should also point out that I don't do Dual Weapon. If I did, I wouldn't need to WM/GWM stack. I think that either Dual Weapons -or- WM/GWM stacking is really needed to allow Lone Wolf to have a competitive CS in later books.

If I really did include both, let's see, that would be a CS of probably 60 (if using Helshezag).

Whether the two blades would / could tolerate each other is another question!

Another question: since Joe won't let you carry a shield into GrandMaster, maybe he WANTS you to go dual-weapon.

[Ghost Bear]

It's stated specifically in Newsletter 8 that you don't add a +2 for having Weaponskill to your +3 for Weaponmastery for a total of +5. I assume this also to be the case with Grand Weaponmastery, but of course, that's not explicit anywhere.

-Ss

[columbob]

The text in the GM series often forgot to put +5 for the GWM. In many instances it says to add +3 to your C.S., for example in the description for the equipment.

Also, the GWM with the bow often only add +3 to your roll. If you've read the Magnakai books, you already have +5 from your improved WM discipline, and an additional +3 from the Silver Bow, so most shots are automatic hits already.

As for adding cumulative bonuses for WM and GWM, that's not allowed, in the same way that it wasn't allowed to add the WS bonus from the Kai cycle to your WM bonus, or to combine Healing and Curing bonuses to add +2 EP per section without a fight.

I found that with the Kagonite Chainmail (+3), Silver Helmet (+2) and Silver Bracers (+2, not in books 14-16 though), +4 for WM and +8 for Sommerswerd, I have in the low 40's for my CS in the GM books. With the help of Kai-surge or Mindblast, I usually dominate most fights, so it's not a problem.

Granted, the chances of automatic kills are fewer and I get wounded more often, but these are GM adventures, not Kai, where you had a walk in the park as soon as you found the Sommerswerd.

The only fight where I was going to bite it was at the end of Captives of Kaag, against that big rat-thing (can't remember the name). Fortunately Banedon was there to save , although had I thought of my Curing +20EP bonus, I could have pulled through (I just never get to use it, so I forget about it!)

The really tough fights are coming up in Deathlord though, so we'll see.

[columbob]

Sol said:

Another question: since Joe won't let you carry a shield into GrandMaster, maybe he WANTS you to go dual-weapon.

You actually can't even get a shield in the Magnakai series, so you've been carrying the same battered old piece of metal and wood since the beginning of Shadow on the Sand at the latest.

You don't get a new Chainmail shirt in the Magnakai series either, so that probably needs repairs as well! ;D

[Black Cat]

Sol said:

At present, I do allow myself to keep the WeaponMastery +4 in addition to the GrandMastery +5. That's for a couple of reasons:

A) the book explicitly states (ie book 13):
"If you have completed any of the previous adventures (books 1-12), you can carry your current scores of Combat Skill and Endurance points over to Book 13. These scores may include Weaponmastery, Curing, and Psi-Surge bonuses."

So I take the full bonus. Psi-Surge is a little different since Kai Surge says you can't use both at once.

B) Creatures like this one (in book 13):

Degradon: CS 49, EP 36
3 Ruel Giganite: CS 50, EP 80

My CS is 46 (50 If I use Psi-Surge) and these become pretty hard fights. I can't imagine fighting these guys at a -9 or -5 after being through all the books.

C) maybe I am just sour at losing my Bronin Vest and Shield when entering the GrandMaster series.

------------------------

Now, I should also point out that I don't do Dual Weapon. If I did, I wouldn't need to WM/GWM stack. I think that either Dual Weapons -or- WM/GWM stacking is really needed to allow Lone Wolf to have a competitive CS in later books.

I already made my opinion about how to transfer stats from the Magnakai to the GM series. Look at this thread:
projectaon.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1095118812
and check my second post.