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Post by Rusty Radiator on Apr 11, 2012 0:03:42 GMT
It's not the same Flight from the Dark that we all know and love, but that doesn't mean it isn't AWESOME and a pure joy to read for LW fans. (I REALLY wish he would have redone Fire on the Water, too. It tells a pretty epic story, but it mechanically the weakest book in the series, riddled with annoyances and with an anticlimactic ending.) HEY! Whoah There. Wait just one Cotton-pickin minute mister...! If it ain't broke don't try to fix it. Actually, FotW is a bit broken, but just that bit with the helghasts & the spear & I think that's been fixed already. Let me lay it on the table- I LIKE Fire on the Water. Sure it's a bit of a surprise when the Lord-of-All-Evil rolls over & drops dead without a fight, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. The way I see it, Zagarna is not the true villain of the first books, it's Vonotar. Zagarna, & the rest of the Kai, are the victims in this whole sordid affair. They've been in a Stalemate for a thousand years till Vonotar sets the ball rolling, much like Steerpike in Gormenghast. So it's entirely appropriate Zagarna gets wasted suddenly & senselessly; the Old Order is withering away & making way for the new. There's symmetry there. What's more, I don't like this creeping inflation of Peril in the original books- where will it all end! First we have a helghast shoe-horned clumsily into King Ulnar's court. Now, if we followed your suggestion, we might have a troop of vordaks & a flood of crypt-spawn to fight through before we get to Zag. What next? Vonotar summons Demonlord Tagazin to defend himself? After you kill Barraka, Darklord Vashna pops out & has a little spar with you? Haakon's brought 3 Darklord buddies with him & you get to race around in The Maze of Haakon? LEAVE EM ALONE! The problem is similar to that of many super-hero franchises; the main protagonist has become super-powerful & super-wise, defeated all natural & unnatural opponents, twice over in some cases, & now wanders around, kicking dirt, boring the fans & the author senseless. So we get a few experimental spin-offs with a few of the protagonist's proteges, but interest tails off coz they don't really have the same dashing qualities & backstory we admired in the original. So what then? We start seeing script-writers going over 'the early days' of said original protagonist, adding details, challenges & opponents we never realised we had missed first time around.{yawns} BORING! I want to see Lone Wolf in space, with planet-altering powers. You've gotta keep going onwards & upwards....
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Post by outspaced on Apr 11, 2012 8:42:45 GMT
Eh, I dunno. I sympathise with aarontu on this one. Fire on the Water is one of my least favourite of the Lone Wolf adventures. It contains some neophyte problems, such as the endless loop if you are missing both the Seal of Hammerdal and any money; and Section 289 where the shopkeeper admires the Seal of Hammerdal even if you are not carrying it. There are options given that are pointless, such as chasing after the fake Ronan at the start. The Green Sceptre journey takes up too many sections that could have been better employed elsewhere--a longer Death Hulk battle sequence, for example; or an expanded journey through Tarnalin allowing for those who don't possess the Magic Spear to find their way through.
All this is not intended to be overly-critical, since it was only Joe Dever's second book. From Book 3 onwards the atmosphere of each adventure seems more pervasive and evocative. But I do rather agree that Book 2 would have benefited from restructuring and rewriting.
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Post by jdubs1211 on Apr 11, 2012 21:01:17 GMT
I enjoy Fire on the Water's storyline and air of mystery the first time you play it.. I don't think most people dislike it for story related reasons.
I think most of the criticism generally comes from it being probably the most "on the rails" storyline out of any other LW book I can think of.... Any branching paths only last for a few sections at most before returning to the same place as all the other branching paths.
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Post by beowuuf on Apr 12, 2012 17:28:28 GMT
I still have Fire on the Water as one of my favourite of the books.
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Post by Rusty Radiator on Apr 12, 2012 22:56:29 GMT
It contains some neophyte problems, such as the endless loop if you are missing both the Seal of Hammerdal and any money; and Section 289 where the shopkeeper admires the Seal of Hammerdal even if you are not carrying it. There are options given that are pointless, such as chasing after the fake Ronan at the start. Hey, if you are in the habit of giving away your most essential quest item you must be Doo-Lally- this explains the sense of space-time distortion experienced whilst playing. As for pointless detours that yield nothing & lead nowhere.... this would NOT be the only example of such futility in the series. I think most of the criticism generally comes from it being probably the most "on the rails" storyline out of any other LW book I can think of.... Any branching paths only last for a few sections at most before returning to the same place as all the other branching paths. Have ye played any Lone Wolf books from 11 onwards.....? At least you get to choose a south-easterly route or a south-westerly route from Ragadorn.
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Post by jdubs1211 on Apr 13, 2012 0:07:07 GMT
You may have a point there.. I have only dabbled in the books past 12.. but at least in terms of 11 and 12..it was pretty linear..maybe not as much as book 2 though
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Post by outspaced on Apr 13, 2012 11:52:58 GMT
Hey, if you are in the habit of giving away your most essential quest item you must be Doo-Lally- this explains the sense of space-time distortion experienced whilst playing. That doesn't excuse the fact that it is a mistake for the author to assume otherwise. Particularly since the only way to reach Section 289 is via Section 41 where the Seal of Hammerdal is stolen from you!True, of course, but usually (not always) there is something at the end of an option--a combat, an item (red herring or not), some background information, etc. But chasing after "Ronan" yields nothing at all; it's completely pointless. You don't even trip over and get injured (lose 2 ENDURANCE points). That whole introductory section would benefit from being rewritten. As would Tarnalin. And lots of the stuff in between.
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Post by Rusty Radiator on Apr 13, 2012 22:51:04 GMT
That doesn't excuse the fact that it is a mistake for the author to assume otherwise. Particularly since the only way to reach Section 289 is via Section 41 where the Seal of Hammerdal is stolen from you! That whole introductory section would benefit from being rewritten. As would Tarnalin. And lots of the stuff in between. Quite frankly, in terms of game-craft, the LW books were never the best examples of cleverness, non-linearity & well thought out structure. I think what won them Gamebook of the Year & keeps us coming back is the lavish & detailed yarn spun out about one hero, his various conflicts, his glowing sword & his growing powers. That is why I got addicted & why the adventures lurk around my daydreams so frequently. The danger of rewrites is that not only the technical stuff gets cleaned up, but the whole narrative gets Barnettized....
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Post by Taryn on Apr 15, 2012 18:59:51 GMT
LW isn't exactly a video game, it's more of an interactive story. The gameplay doesn't have to be top-notch, I enjoy reading Joe's words about the captivating world and story of Magnamund and guiding Lone Wolf through his adventures as he gets more powerful and important. Gameplay is secondary to the story, world, and the heroic adventures that are unfolding.
Not saying that the gameplay is bad, of course ^_~
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Post by Rusty Radiator on Apr 15, 2012 23:33:30 GMT
LW isn't exactly a video game, it's more of an interactive story. The gameplay doesn't have to be top-notch, I enjoy reading Joe's words about the captivating world and story of Magnamund and guiding Lone Wolf through his adventures as he gets more powerful and important. Gameplay is secondary to the story, world, and the heroic adventures that are unfolding. That's what I said.
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Post by anotherknight on Apr 16, 2012 1:05:51 GMT
A new edition should be a chance to correct the mistakes (like the errors Outspaced points) and misprints. But i got to say (and i said that some years ago) the first and second books are the best for me. i read them countless times before buying the third one. And my problem is that i cannot find anything new since then. Yes, Shadow on the sand is fine, and of course here i am for the series.
But for me the capacity to synthesize and to be reinvented are a big deal for me. Adding new sections to a well done opera is not the kind of effort i recommend to do. First at all, change the mistakes.
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Post by Snowshadow on Apr 20, 2012 9:06:01 GMT
Pocket watches are fairly old; they were being made in the 1400's. Thus the idea of a clockwork timepiece isn't out of the realms of possibility in Magnamund, especially given people can build flying ships and give them to lone wolf and the sheer number of combination locked crypts, chests etc in the setting. Clearly complex machinery and gears already exist. It does seem odd that a kai initiate has one to casually awaken him though. ...And if Lone Wolf has his own Timepiece from Section 1 of Book 1, why would he ever need to pick up an Hourglass in latter books (Grand Master especially)? [Another 'The most Haaaaaaaang on a second moments in Lone Wolf'] Although I suppose it is reasonable to assume he leaves his watch at the dormitory when going to weapons practise but it is also possible to reach the dormitory and collect your things (Axe & 10GC) before that part is breached. Personally, I liked the rewrite overall. I would have liked to have seen all the books get a similar treatment where proper. One of my favorite parts was the vivid description of Alema bridge that gives you a much better sense of the scale of the bridge and battle. Except I don't think Alema Bridge was ever meant to be that huge in the original version. The new version makes it feel like some feat of super-engineering (mile long stone bridge, massive towers, central marketplace on a single massive slab of stone…) that just feels impossible to me in a medieval setting. Castles and city walls, fine — but this ? Unless there was magic involved somehow. Really Oiseau? Forget Mongoose's rewrite, in the original Fire on the Water we do not quibble at the architectural and engineering feats of the Durenese, whom the Sommlending have strong links with. The three tunnels leading to Hammerdal, Tarnalin, Calencut & Welden, were carved over a thousand years before during the Age of the Black Moon [MS3000-3799] and they are forty miles long each (Section '299'). Plus don't forget the bridges over the Rhymerift, which we are told is over a mile deep ('244'). Suddenly a large mile long pier-like marketplace bridge in Sommerlund does not seem so impossible, particularly when you think of the Sommlending achievements - the 200 foot high & 100 yards long outer walls of Holmguard (Bk 1 '129'/'179' Mongoose) and the vast Maaken Mines (Bk 4). Also, we learn that the Kai Monastery LW rebuilds is practically identical to the original - with it's secret doors & Vault of the Sun, etc. so the technology level is already established. The Dwarfs of Bor may trade with the Sommlending too, Bor Boom Powder is found on the bridge, it isn't inconceivable that they too had a hand in the bridge's creation. I suppose you could argue though that the powder could belong to a merchant but whenever the bridge was built it is very possible that the Sommlending had aid - either from Dwarfs or Brotherhood magicians; let's not forget how long Skyships have been around too no matter how rare. Some trade takes place on the bridge, some on the shore (Durnstone), you can imagine as many or as few stalls as you wish. Eh, I dunno. I sympathise with aarontu on this one. Fire on the Water is one of my least favourite of the Lone Wolf adventures. It contains some neophyte problems, such as the endless loop if you are missing both the Seal of Hammerdal and any money; and Section 289 where the shopkeeper admires the Seal of Hammerdal even if you are not carrying it. There are options given that are pointless, such as chasing after the fake Ronan at the start. The Green Sceptre journey takes up too many sections that could have been better employed elsewhere--a longer Death Hulk battle sequence, for example; or an expanded journey through Tarnalin allowing for those who don't possess the Magic Spear to find their way through. All this is not intended to be overly-critical, since it was only Joe Dever's second book. From Book 3 onwards the atmosphere of each adventure seems more pervasive and evocative. But I do rather agree that Book 2 would have benefited from restructuring and rewriting. Hey, if you are in the habit of giving away your most essential quest item you must be Doo-Lally- this explains the sense of space-time distortion experienced whilst playing. That doesn't excuse the fact that it is a mistake for the author to assume otherwise. Particularly since the only way to reach Section 289 is via Section 41 where the Seal of Hammerdal is stolen from you!The Ronan search is pointless BUT allows you to restore +1EP if you have Healing - it is possible to get into a fight on the Green Sceptre (Giaks or Drakkar depending on the Random Number) before being fully Healed. I still have Fire on the Water as one of my favourite of the books. Mine too, might be for nostalgic reasons or because it is one of the hardest. I am not a fan of the jiggling where you can meet the Noodnics if you don't have the Magic Spear, it just feels wrong to 'win' without passing through '320'. To be fair though I am not a fan either of needing Animal Kinship if you give the Spear to Rhygar, which I feel LW should do. The thing is the reason to my mind why the sections were different is that if you keep the Spear you want to set off, knowing you are effectively leaving Rhygar to his doom... "Hold them off as best you can but don't be a hero - save yourself," sighs Lone Wolf guiltily. "Don't worry, I won't waste my life on a mere Kai Initiate!" Lies Rhygar with a wry grin. Whereas if Lone Wolf tries to give him the Spear an argument breaks out - "no you have it you're more important", "no you have it, you're more likely to meet the Helghast" - by the time Rhygar agrees (five or ten minutes later and only then because time is precious) the Noodic will have emerged into the tunnel, safer because the Helghast are basically further 'in'. You may have a point there.. I have only dabbled in the books past 12.. but at least in terms of 11 and 12..it was pretty linear..maybe not as much as book 2 though I am not much of a fan of the New Order Gamebooks method of 3 or 4 different skill uses having EXACTLY the same result. Latter books are even more linear but that is the trade off - you either have lots of choice but a shorter overall story or less choice for a longer story. The later books are more in depth, with various reader rewards of how earlier books link in and I suppose they evolved with the age of the 'average' loyal reader's expectations. It is possible to write a story with retracable step options and key words (like Fabled lands or FF's Scorpion Swamp) but the problem is the overall quality suffers, at least to my mind. LW isn't exactly a video game, it's more of an interactive story. The gameplay doesn't have to be top-notch, I enjoy reading Joe's words about the captivating world and story of Magnamund and guiding Lone Wolf through his adventures as he gets more powerful and important. Gameplay is secondary to the story, world, and the heroic adventures that are unfolding. Not saying that the gameplay is bad, of course ^_~ Funny you should mention that because I have felt a couple of times that when reading Mongoose's version it does actually feel like the start of a modern video game - an easy combat to start, some basic equipment added - very similar. Then once you leave the monastery the video game/gamebook begins 'proper', it could be just me though - I never really played video games in my teens, I had LW, but now I have children I do. I guess it all boils down to whether you want to play Book 1 as FLIGHT (Original) or FIGHT (Mongoose). Perhaps yet again Joe used his "Adaption is the key to Survival" (Slaughter Mountain Run?) and wrote FftD to suit the next generations needs.
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Post by Taryn on Apr 20, 2012 16:50:22 GMT
I played a lot of video games as a kid (and still do today), but I also read a lot. LW to me seemed like a combination of the two when I was younger. A book that's also a game.
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Post by zliplus on Jun 18, 2012 16:30:29 GMT
One of the most unique and special aspects of FftD for me was always the fact that LW is not some kind of superman like he becomes in later books. As the name indicates, I've always read the book as if it was a survival horror instead of a hack-and-slash fantasy. I loved the fact that LW could be a relatively normal (weak) neophyte, constantly on the run from enemies and surviving on wits and luck rather than slaughtering his way to victory. That's also what made FotW such a great book for me - after running away from the hordes of evil for almost 2 books, you achieve your quest, find the artifact, and become empowered to smite the armies of darkness. Yes, the Sommerswerd caused enormous game balance issues later on, but it was a great ride at the start.
That's why I find the revised edition fairly disappointing - it's turned from the 'anyone can succeed' no-combat-viable original into yet another epic combat-fest that a minimum stat character has no chance surviving.
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Post by Rusty Radiator on Jun 18, 2012 18:00:51 GMT
^^What he said!^^
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