Seventh Sense 1.14.x Error/Bug Reports

[Dave]

Perfect. Thanks, guys - I'll whip that up into shape, and then release the next version today!

[Dave]

OK folks, 1.14.4 is up and out there. I encourage you *not* to use your no-death Hardcore/BTB HOF run attempts for a while, to let the dust settle around some fairly significant changes regarding the RNT generation and tracking, so I'd wait until book 16 at least before starting back into those runs...

I do not anticipate any issues with the new RNT system, but then, I never do! Please let me know if you run into unexpected things (like if you complete a run of BTB, and don't get the notification, etc. Shouldn't happen, but just keep your eyes peeled!) Thanks!

[UrQuan]

Quite some issues already!

Quitting and restarting the client, and then restarting from section 1 starts the game with the same seed so you will roll the same sequence of rolls as the previous run.
Restarting from section 1 in general starts you off with the same seed, and exactly where it was in section 1, making you roll the same sequence of rolls.

[UrQuan]

There is nothing that should prevent you from using Mindblast in this combat: 270

[Honza]

Mar 5, 2014 10:26:37 GMT UrQuan said:

There is nothing that should prevent you from using Mindblast in this combat: 270

The combat itself is psychic, the Mindblast/Psi-surge is IMHO represented by additional Kai-disciplines.

Strictly speaking, you are using Psi-surge, and 'Psi-surge and Mindblast cannot be used simultaneously'

Or you wish to add -2EP/turn loss?

[UrQuan]

Mar 5, 2014 11:47:39 GMT Honza said:

Mar 5, 2014 10:26:37 GMT UrQuan said:

There is nothing that should prevent you from using Mindblast in this combat: 270

The combat itself is psychic, the Mindblast/Psi-surge is IMHO represented by additional Kai-disciplines.

Strictly speaking, you are using Psi-surge, and 'Psi-surge and Mindblast cannot be used simultaneously'

Or you wish to add -2EP/turn loss?

Maybe, but I would say you are overthinking it. Forget about the context of the fight from previous sections and just look at the text in that section. It clearly says "Conduct this mind combat following normal combat procedure", and then a list of exceptions. Nothing is mentioned about Mindblast since it's usable like in a normal combat.

If the current implementation is kept then it would in a way make sense to add the -2 EP loss, but that seems very arbitary in relation to the current text. Generally of course Psi-surge sucks and you wouldn't never want to use it willingly in a combat.

[Dave]

Mar 5, 2014 6:55:32 GMT UrQuan said:

Quite some issues already!

Quitting and restarting the client, and then restarting from section 1 starts the game with the same seed so you will roll the same sequence of rolls as the previous run.
Restarting from section 1 in general starts you off with the same seed, and exactly where it was in section 1, making you roll the same sequence of rolls.

Ah, oops, I didn't realize that this would be a problem. That's an easy fix. When you restart the current game book from the beginning (using saved campaign info), it *should* leave the RNT generator advanced so that you have a different sequence of rolls. Could you confirm this behavior? I will add a fix for the "restart from section 1" issue right away. (Adding that option has been nothing but headaches - was it worth it? I don't know)

[UrQuan]

Mar 5, 2014 15:35:40 GMT Dave said:

Mar 5, 2014 6:55:32 GMT UrQuan said:

Quite some issues already!

Quitting and restarting the client, and then restarting from section 1 starts the game with the same seed so you will roll the same sequence of rolls as the previous run.
Restarting from section 1 in general starts you off with the same seed, and exactly where it was in section 1, making you roll the same sequence of rolls.

Ah, oops, I didn't realize that this would be a problem. That's an easy fix. When you restart the current game book from the beginning (using saved campaign info), it *should* leave the RNT generator advanced so that you have a different sequence of rolls. Could you confirm this behavior? I will add a fix for the "restart from section 1" issue right away. (Adding that option has been nothing but headaches - was it worth it? I don't know)

Yes, that is working correctly.

[UrQuan]

I have now looked through all of the Mongoose related errata/footnotes from books 1-14. There is not much game-mechanic related left that needs to be fixed. Certainly nothing that should take time away from book 15 development!

However, in the Mongoose editions you don't lose your backpack in section 194 in book 2, which seams like a cleaner implementation as an optional choice than the current choices you have there. Yeah, you should totally implement that one! *cough* I'm sorry, I must have gotten something in my throat.....

Anyway, here is some more minor stuff:

Clarified that Hunting is not usable: 129, 185
Clarified that 0=10: 56, 86
Clarified that you may not use a Shield: 201



Oh, and this stuff which is truly a can of worms:

The Mongoose Magnakai books (maybe newer releases of the Kai books also?) have an extended description for Laumspur in the Equipment section adding "It cannot be used to increase ENDURANCE points immediately prior to a combat.". Mysteriously this text is not present in any of the online books. In fact I have found no mention of it anywhere online. Surprisingly, the only discussion I've found about this whole Laumspur issue in general is a thread from 2004, but the discussion there was mostly about if you can use Laumspur only immediately after a combat, or at any time except during a combat. Funny, that both of these seem to be wrong.

Also, there is a distinction between healing items in the texts that is not currently taken into account in Seventh Sense (or by anyone!). For example in section 341, Oede and Laumwort have the description "if swallowed before or after combat". I do understand how it makes sense thematically not to be able to use Laumspur right before a combat, but I'm not sure why Oede and Laumwort would bypass this restriction. Still, that distinction seems very deliberate, especially in regards to the extended Laumspur description.

To add to the confusion both previous and subsequent books randomly omit such descriptions altogether for items found mid-book. And you thought that was confusing? Some sections referencing Potions of Laumspur, like 182 limit them to only "immediately after a combat". You could say that was a special case but still it says "Potions of Laumspur".

So again, I'm surprised there has seemingly been no discussion about this in literally over 10 years.

[Honza]

Mar 6, 2014 21:01:32 GMT UrQuan said:

...
However, in the Mongoose editions you don't lose your backpack in section 194 in book 2, which seams like a cleaner implementation as an optional choice than the current choices you have there. Yeah, you should totally implement that one! *cough* I'm sorry, I must have gotten something in my throat.....
...

Interesting. How did Mongoose correct other issues while in Ragadorn that suppose you do not possess a backpack? Section 91 (Ragadorn market), section 262 ('Potion of Orange Liquid') and section 103 (Laumspur meal)?

Mar 6, 2014 21:01:32 GMT UrQuan said:

...
Oh, and this stuff which is truly a can of worms:

The Mongoose Magnakai books (maybe newer releases of the Kai books also?) have an extended description for Laumspur in the Equipment section adding "It cannot be used to increase ENDURANCE points immediately prior to a combat.". Mysteriously this text is not present in any of the online books. In fact I have found no mention of it anywhere online. Surprisingly, the only discussion I've found about this whole Laumspur issue in general is a thread from 2004, but the discussion there was mostly about if you can use Laumspur only immediately after a combat, or at any time except during a combat. Funny, that both of these seem to be wrong.

Also, there is a distinction between healing items in the texts that is not currently taken into account in Seventh Sense (or by anyone!). For example in section 341, Oede and Laumwort have the description "if swallowed before or after combat". I do understand how it makes sense thematically not to be able to use Laumspur right before a combat, but I'm not sure why Oede and Laumwort would bypass this restriction. Still, that distinction seems very deliberate, especially in regards to the extended Laumspur description.

To add to the confusion both previous and subsequent books randomly omit such descriptions altogether for items found mid-book. And you thought that was confusing? Some sections referencing Potions of Laumspur, like 182 limit them to only "immediately after a combat". You could say that was a special case but still it says "Potions of Laumspur".

So again, I'm surprised there has seemingly been no discussion about this in literally over 10 years.

As for this, if you are able to dope yourself with Alether/Adgana 'immediately prior to a combat', then I won't see any difference for Laumspur.
IIRC, in Seventh Sense book 11 is Haina flower usable only right after combat, but this is the only case I could remember.
And why you should be limited to use healing potions only 'immediately after a combat'?

Again, IMHO, we have to make our peace with certain inconsistencies taken during (how many years separate book 1 and 28) years of Joe's work, and use our common sense

[UrQuan]

Mar 7, 2014 11:41:27 GMT Honza said:

Mar 6, 2014 21:01:32 GMT UrQuan said:

...
However, in the Mongoose editions you don't lose your backpack in section 194 in book 2, which seams like a cleaner implementation as an optional choice than the current choices you have there. Yeah, you should totally implement that one! *cough* I'm sorry, I must have gotten something in my throat.....
...

Interesting. How did Mongoose correct other issues while in Ragadorn that suppose you do not possess a backpack? Section 91 (Ragadorn market), section 262 ('Potion of Orange Liquid') and section 103 (Laumspur meal)?

Not sure what issues there are in those sections. By the way, the joke I was trying to make here had to do with the Potion of Orange Liquid being sort of an Easter egg in Seventh Sense. Would have been funny if that Mongoose edition change was implemented, seeing as this is what the potion does if you could somehow pick it up:

Mar 6, 2014 21:01:32 GMT UrQuan said:

...
Oh, and this stuff which is truly a can of worms:

The Mongoose Magnakai books (maybe newer releases of the Kai books also?) have an extended description for Laumspur in the Equipment section adding "It cannot be used to increase ENDURANCE points immediately prior to a combat.". Mysteriously this text is not present in any of the online books. In fact I have found no mention of it anywhere online. Surprisingly, the only discussion I've found about this whole Laumspur issue in general is a thread from 2004, but the discussion there was mostly about if you can use Laumspur only immediately after a combat, or at any time except during a combat. Funny, that both of these seem to be wrong.

Also, there is a distinction between healing items in the texts that is not currently taken into account in Seventh Sense (or by anyone!). For example in section 341, Oede and Laumwort have the description "if swallowed before or after combat". I do understand how it makes sense thematically not to be able to use Laumspur right before a combat, but I'm not sure why Oede and Laumwort would bypass this restriction. Still, that distinction seems very deliberate, especially in regards to the extended Laumspur description.

To add to the confusion both previous and subsequent books randomly omit such descriptions altogether for items found mid-book. And you thought that was confusing? Some sections referencing Potions of Laumspur, like 182 limit them to only "immediately after a combat". You could say that was a special case but still it says "Potions of Laumspur".

So again, I'm surprised there has seemingly been no discussion about this in literally over 10 years.

As for this, if you are able to dope yourself with Alether/Adgana 'immediately prior to a combat', then I won't see any difference for Laumspur.
IIRC, in Seventh Sense book 11 is Haina flower usable only right after combat, but this is the only case I could remember.
And why you should be limited to use healing potions only 'immediately after a combat'?

Again, IMHO, we have to make our peace with certain inconsistencies taken during (how many years separate book 1 and 28) years of Joe's work, and use our common sense

It makes sense to be able to use one potion, but maybe not ten separate Potions of Laumspur in a row right before a combat. I personally don't care about realism issues like this, but seemingly the current implementation is not completely correct in Seventh Sense, in regards to that description about Laumspur at least. Although, it might also be an idea to just leave it like it is.

I'm not sure, maybe because they would only work on "fresh wounds"? It seems that this limitation is not supposed to apply to any other healing items though, except for those moldy leaves in Wolf's Bane (that are still called Potions of Laumspur), and the Haina flower.

I'm not sure how far common sense gets you in this case!

[hemulen]

I'm not sure there is any definite answer to this, but I think it makes sense to keep laumspur as "use anytime, except just before / during a combat", especially with the added text in the Mongoose books (cannot be used immediately prior to combat, but can be used after combat... no mention of immediately, so using it 5 hours / days after a combat would still follow this rule). And if you can't drink laumspur potions except immediately after combat, then why can you eat a meal of laumspur (book 2) at any time and get healed. At least there is no restriction mentioned there.

Thematically you could explain it away that it takes a while for laumspur to work, so therefore you would not get any benefits from it if you took it immediately before a fight, while other healing herbs allow this, and works faster.

This is also an interesting section FWIW:
"Due to the surprise of its attack, you cannot swallow any potions before the combat."

[hemulen]

Ok, it's been a while since I played with seventh sense (and doing some multitasking here), so I forgot that you actually could use laumspur immediately prior to a combat (but of course not during). Anyway I don't really have a problem with it being the way it is, and I don't think it's worth the extra work to make different rules for different herbs.

[Dave]

Mar 6, 2014 21:01:32 GMT UrQuan said:

Anyway, here is some more minor stuff:

Clarified that Hunting is not usable: 129, 185
Clarified that 0=10: 56, 86
Clarified that you may not use a Shield: 201

Fixed all of those, (along with book 4 ,sec 269 - Hunting not allowed)

as to the rest -

No-one is going to get that Orange potion! It also has a tooltip that says "The only way to get this item is by cheating! Shame on you!"

I think we're just going to leave the potion stuff as it is... Also, the fishermen thieves took your weapons but not your gold? Idiotic. Maybe that's why Mongoose lost the deal with Dever - too much non-sense added in. And, quite seriously, the quote that hemulen supplied is the real reason that potion usage in Seventh Sense is exactly the way it is. You clearly *can* take potions before combats, except when the author specifically tells you there isn't time.

As to the fishermen thieves, I should probably just change the footnote in Seventh Sense to read - "Your Map and Crystal start pendant (if you have one) will be found with the Seal of Hammerdal, should you recover it."

[Dave]

OK, v.1.14.5 is up. This fixes the issues mentioned above, along with the restore to section 1 RNT issue.

(I didn't change the fishermen thieves section yet...)