Lone Wolf 30: Dead in the Deep- SPOILERS INSIDE discussion

[GhostofLandar]

How I've longed for this day.  We finally have #30 and true to Ben's announcements in 2017, it represents the beginning of the end.  I'm really loath to even give spoilers here and perhaps as a way to spare anyone who accidentally clicks I'll wait until subsequent posts.


YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.  SWEEET, SWEET SPOILERS AHEAD!!!!


WARNING


FINAL WARNING, TURN BACK NOW OR YOUR QUEST ENDS HERE!





I want to talk about that thing that True Heart (my name for the NO Kai) receives.  You know what I mean, it's very early on and when I read it, I had to put the book down because I felt it was so momentous and quite a shock to consider.

[kurz81]

I believe you mean the Nyxator Chainmail Vest (+4 CS / +10 END).
If I understand your question right, your best choice at the beginning is Cynxa.

I applaud this plot choice because it's an excting start, to clearify that things are gonna be pretty wild this time, so you need the very best equipment.
This Coat will be crucial later and you will really need to think about your choice or you're gonna auto-lose.
Also it is a very good way to balance some stats so that new players would have a low but possible chance to complete the book.
On the other hand, if you are a veteran, your CS/END stats now are over the top. 62 Combat Skill / 67 Endurance before entering Emolyria. For the last fight if you have all the +CS bonus you will be around 80 CS.

I will wait one more week then I will post LW30 walkthrough that I have stored since November 2018.

[GhostofLandar]

As much as I loved the idea of Lone Wolf rescuing the "trophies" of Nyxator from Kaag and crafting armor from it, I'm referring to the prophecy that Gwynian receives from his astrological visions. You know, the Warrior and the Magician one. It presents a possibility I had never considered before, at least not past Prisoners of Time's conclusion. A possible redemption for the spirit of Vonotar?

[kurz81]

According to my italian version of LW30:
The Scroll of Gwynian says that there were one Warrior and one Magician contrapposed.
The warrior could be Lone Wolf or the N.O. Grand Master and his future reward will be one kingdom (could be a metaphor for peace in Magnamund).
The magician is very difficult to identify. It is said that he is a man (so it's not Lady Jhudyth) and his reward will be freedom (from Evil? from his past?).
He could be Vonotar, but he is very dead and very difficult to redeem... There was Vonotar's Brother in Joe Dever's Lone Wolf HD Remastered and he was benevolent enough to redeem himself.
Other prominent magician antagonists were very evil and very dead.

Another important thing to add is that you don't have space enough for the Gwynian scroll (it takes one slot of the 12 special items). It is not needed in the adventure so you better drop it.

[greylord]

I haven't read book 30 yet, but I imagine it could also be a reference to Grey Star?

Things may have happened, and he could very well be on the Southern portion of Magnamund vs. the Northern Portion?

[GhostofLandar]

No, one of the magicians is banished for his sin. Maybe there is some other magician we haven't met, but the only two that you could argue are banished/self-exiled that are powerful magicians are Shasarak and Vonotar. And it's clear in the land of sun (don't have book in front of me.) it's also clear about a hatred/grievance being buried and one achieving eternal freedom for man, and the other an eternal kingdom (though coyly, it does not necessarily say which gets which.) This leads me to believe that Vonotar (somehow) will be redeemed by the end.

[greylord]

It could be.  With Grey Star though we know that something must have happened with him. He disappeared (at least for a while) and somehow Naar got the Moonstone.

Vonotar could be it, but isn't he dead?

Shasarak I think was eternally exiled with Agarash at the end of War of the Wizards...so could be him.

[GhostofLandar]

Well Gwynian says "relevant to the New Order Kai." This brings me back to Sommerlund and LW/Vonotar as the pair.

[kurz81]

Please quote the gwynian scroll prophecy in english version. I would like to compare it with the italian version if I can find more details.

[Black Cat]

Like with book 29, I've only read book 30 (meaning: not fighting combats, having excellent RNT results but taking in consideration the disciplines and equipment I had). Honestly, this is one huge adventure, and I'm not talking simply about its lenght. There are so many references from previous books of the series (The Dagger of Vashna! Serocca! The Beholder of Yanis! Lajakeka!) that it is overwhelming! It felt as a mix of book 16, book 12 and book 25 all together. I really loved it.

As for Gwynian's scroll...

Long ago within a sunny realm arose
A Warrior and a Magician, set by fate opposed
One, selfless protector of his kin
The other, damned and banished for his sin
If hate be unwound, and buried their grievance
Changed forever shall be the great balance
For one, an eternal kingdom enshrined
The other, eternal freedom for mankind

So yeah, maybe and alliance between Lone Wolf and Vonotar (or at least, his spirit), or it could refers to people we have yet to meet.

[Black Cat]

Since I've wrote my previous comment at 3:00 in the morning (because reading this brick takes nearly 6 hours!), here is more comments:

-Richard Sampson art! I've loved Rich Longmore art in the first few books of the republished series but now I have a new personnal favorite. The artwork feels as if it was the late Brian Williams who made it! The fact that Sampson doesn't use computers to make his art is a big reason why I feel this way.
-Like I said earlier, I didn't fight the combats, but they seem difficult IMO. However, maybe I got the wrong impression because I didn't remember my own stats from the previous books. Once I play properly through the other books of the NO series, maybe I'll have a better idea of the difficulty of the combats.
-Like with book 29, there are some typos... But they are mostly missing spaces between words.

And now, weird questions!
-How come the Nadziranim were able to create a Shadow Gate without the Moonstone? I know, the power of the Lake of Blood and all, but if it was possible to create Shadow Gates out of it, why the Darklords didn't do that earlier? I hope we get better explanations in the next books.
-Why Blazer is the only Kai Lord we know with a one-word name?
-Why is my copy of book 30 slightly different than my copy of book 23? The first one has a round spine, the other one a flat spine. The cover of book 30 (under the dust jacket) has its title place on the top while book 23 has the title at the bottom (I understand that, on the dust jacket, it would had covered Karvas' face, but on a simple black cover?). The Lone Wolf logo on the spines are slightly different from one to the other. Both books come from the same printer! It's not really important for me, just something that I've noticed.

[GhostofLandar]

Jul 9, 2019 15:28:14 GMT Black Cat said:

Since I've wrote my previous comment at 3:00 in the morning (because reading this brick takes nearly 6 hours!), here is more comments:

-Richard Sampson art! I've loved Rich Longmore art in the first few books of the republished series but now I have a new personnal favorite. The artwork feels as if it was the late Brian Williams who made it! The fact that Sampson doesn't use computers to make his art is a big reason why I feel this way.
-Like I said earlier, I didn't fight the combats, but they seem difficult IMO. However, maybe I got the wrong impression because I didn't remember my own stats from the previous books. Once I play properly through the other books of the NO series, maybe I'll have a better idea of the difficulty of the combats.
-Like with book 29, there are some typos... But they are mostly missing spaces between words.

And now, weird questions!
-How come the Nadziranim were able to create a Shadow Gate without the Moonstone? I know, the power of the Lake of Blood and all, but if it was possible to create Shadow Gates out of it, why the Darklords didn't do that earlier? I hope we get better explanations in the next books.
-Why Blazer is the only Kai Lord we know with a one-word name?
-Why is my copy of book 30 slightly different than my copy of book 23? The first one has a round spine, the other one a flat spine. The cover of book 30 (under the dust jacket) has its title place on the top while book 23 has the title at the bottom (I understand that, on the dust jacket, it would had covered Karvas' face, but on a simple black cover?). The Lone Wolf logo on the spines are slightly different from one to the other. Both books come from the same printer! It's not really important for me, just something that I've noticed.

I felt same way about the art. There were some differences (Williams' Serocca is better) but the art style is better for some of the creatures and Dakomyds look like a draconic race and terrifying.  I think the "trippy" portions of the book with the Chaos prison or even just how they're trying to "create" the Tzomah are interesting additions.  Not sure how i feel about the Clock of the Great Return.  Thinking about the Nengud-kor-Adez, did it being powered by tortured souls inspire (or inspired by) the Hellcannon in Warhammer.  I know the Lake of Blood goes way back, just trying to think of the timing of these things.  

I do think it is Vonotar and Lone Wolf, it's certainly the pairing with the most meaning to us. 

Blazer is so impetuous, he can't even have a two word name.

As for the Shadow Gate...well, here is something I thought about.  We know that you need great power to enter a Shadow Gate going to Aon, but after the fall of the Chaos-Master, is it not possible one of his minions (or as a last ditch effort in his domain of paradox) that he created a Chaos Seed and sent it back via some disciple, but that this occurred when the N-k-A had shifted? The book mentions that in the destruction of Helgedad (which was like a nuke going off) the Lake fed on the souls of everyone who perished in the city.  Helgedad was fairly large and most Darklands victims were never fed into the lake.  I would guess that this, plus some additional sacrifices could be enough to open a Shadow Gate.  Perhaps the Nadziranim went to the Daziarn and brought things back from the Neverness or Realm of Paradox.  It's all very exciting.

I was glad to see that there is a doctrinal split again with the Brotherhood of the Crystal Star, one that seems similar to Vonotar's split and eventual betrayal, and an innovation in their magic.

Do they keep going with Vashna as the ultimate returning villain, or in fact, do we see LW, Grey Star, New Order GM, Banedon, Rimoah team up to fight Vashna, Agarash, Shamath, etc? 

I agree with LW, I wish the Shianti had stayed behind.

[GhostofLandar]

Remember how in the Grant books, Lone Wolf has pity for Vonotar?

"Bilbo's pity may rule the fate of many."

[Black Cat]

We all talk about Lone Wolf and Vonotar beeing referenced by Gwynian's scroll but what if it is not about past characters but actual ones? Our Grand Master can easily be the Warrior of the scroll and Lady Jhudyth, with her desire to use right-handed magic, could very well become a Vonotar #2 in the near future (and be banished). Somebody else said earlier that the scroll referenced the warrior and magician as men but there is nothing in the original version about that, leaving open the possibility that it could be a woman.

[GhostofLandar]

I thought about that with Jhudyth, I just don't have any investment at all in her character and I detect no hate or grievance between the two, whereas LW and Vonotar hated each other (and that is in the scroll.)