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Post by rhygar on Mar 26, 2020 15:54:41 GMT
When the Lone Wolf books first came out they had Joe Dever and Gary Chalk written on the spine, leading me to believe at the time they were a joint effort, with Gary Chalk doing the illustrations and Joe Dever the writing but with some sort of collaboration throughout the process.
In interviews, Joe says that he had the story arcs and the books all mapped out more or less from the get-go, with the world based upon his D & D setting Chinaraux which had been around since 1977. From what he says, I get the impression that he was the sole creator of what was getting written in the books.
In an interview Gary Chalk says: Lonewolf came about because Livingstone and Jackson were looking for people to ghostwrite their fighting Fantasy books for a pitiful royalty. They approached myself and Joe Dever, who was working away in the bowels of their warehouse. I thought, that if we were good enough to write their books, we were good enough to write our own. That’s how we came up with the idea of Lone Wolf which was loosely based on the world that Joe had used for his D&D games.
[my underlinings]
Is there a contradiction here?
Was Gary Chalk ‘only’ the illustrator or did he play a role in the stories and the writing too? Dever and Chalk met at Games Workshop in, what, 1982 or 3? So did Gary Chalk play in Joe's campaign in the way that Ian Page did? Anyone know?
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Post by Oiseau on Apr 6, 2020 18:04:48 GMT
I have no knowledge of any hard facts. But going by the way the game balance flies out the window starting with Bk 9, I always assumed Gary Chalk was at least responsible for putting in fair-play alternatives for weak characters. In early books, you see various saves for weak Lone Wolves : first book can be won without combat ; second book gives you the Animal Kinship option — or should if it hadn't been screwed up in later versions ; third book gives you the Effigy ; fourth book gives you Holy Water ; fifth book allows you to send Haakon into another world without engaging him in combat ; sixth book is iffy, no real way to avoid the Dakomyd, but you still only have to take it down to half Endurance ; seventh book you can run from the final boss ; eighth book you can actually choose not to enter Tharro and most fights in the swamp are avoidable except that python. Then it stops : Zakhan Kimah says, if you're weak you're dead, screw you. And then there's the Chaos Master and the enemy gauntlet at the end of Bk 11.
So yeah, my pet theory is that Gary Chalk was the voice of fairness toward players.
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Post by GhostofLandar on Apr 16, 2020 16:40:58 GMT
While I don't know, I can say that Chalk's illustration seems to have defined Games Workshop illustration styles for 1.5-2 decades. Look at the army books and other art, it's all very reminiscent in the faces of Chalk's work, proportions, even as it began to evolve. It does seem Gary did more than draw and I find it quite striking that he was involved in Redwall's illustration which first came out in 1986, while we also see a Noodnic in 1984 in FotW. Now the Noodnic could have been Joe's idea, but one does wonder you know.
I am strongly of the opinion (actually mostly fact from the case I can construct) that GW plagiarized and borrowed-on-border-of-stole from Joe multiple times for many of their major faction ideas and story notes. They even stole Joe's way of making Noodnic's talk "Durenese man-man" repeating the word for "Queekish" language of the Skaven. In fact, Skaven itself was likely taken in a flight of inspiration, NOT from a shortening of Scavenge (which I'm sure would be the legal defense in court) but from the Sommlending town of AnSKAVEN.
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Post by rhygar on Apr 19, 2020 7:38:00 GMT
So yeah, my pet theory is that Gary Chalk was the voice of fairness toward players. Gary Chalk as playtester of the books eh? Making sure that there is a path for players with a lower CS and ironing out any bugs. It's certainly possible. Were some of Joe's later books playtested at all or checked for errors? I'm thinking here of Shamath's Riddle and some versions have an incorrect Action Chart. |
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Post by rhygar on Apr 19, 2020 7:58:02 GMT
While I don't know, I can say that Chalk's illustration seems to have defined Games Workshop illustration styles for 1.5-2 decades. Look at the army books and other art, it's all very reminiscent in the faces of Chalk's work, proportions, even as it began to evolve. It does seem Gary did more than draw and I find it quite striking that he was involved in Redwall's illustration which first came out in 1986, while we also see a Noodnic in 1984 in FotW. Now the Noodnic could have been Joe's idea, but one does wonder you know. I am strongly of the opinion (actually mostly fact from the case I can construct) that GW plagiarized and borrowed-on-border-of-stole from Joe multiple times for many of their major faction ideas and story notes. They even stole Joe's way of making Noodnic's talk "Durenese man-man" repeating the word for "Queekish" language of the Skaven. In fact, Skaven itself was likely taken in a flight of inspiration, NOT from a shortening of Scavenge (which I'm sure would be the legal defense in court) but from the Sommlending town of AnSKAVEN. Those artists who were 'in it from the start' - Tony Ackland, John Blanche (and Gary Chalk a bit later) were certainly incredibly influential, as were the Citadel figure sculptors. Yes, they were using Gary's art in Warhammer Armies (1988) and other warhammer-related stuff in the late 80's. Plus Heroquest. I feel in particular Gary did a lot of work on banners and flags. The noodnics are certainly a possibility and exactly the sort of thing i was wondering about. Your last paragraph has got me thinking and is probably worth a thread of its own. Joe Dever was running Warhammer battles at wargame and roleplaying shows early in the game's life so it would not be surprising if some of his ideas left traces (at the very least). Have you read the Citadel Journal Spring 86? [Edit: The blog called Oldhammer in Toronto has a page called Skaven: the Origin of the Species, it's worth a read, also the comments section]. Here it is said how the Skaven were invented by sculptor Jes Goodwin. I'll think more about this. Have you other examples? Is there a thread on Project Aon you have already started? |
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Post by GhostofLandar on Apr 19, 2020 15:27:10 GMT
rhygar
Other than a couple examples, I've kept it close to vest and given information to appropriate parties. My research has revealed facts and timelines that demonstrate that this is more than a "trace" but is in fact, a theft/borrowing from Joe at timelines at about 6 mos to 2 years. Now, maybe it could be argued Joe borrowed from the sculptors or some basic ideas, I don't know (I have tried to make sure every timeline is in order.) I have to be honest as well, I also want credit for discovering all this, I want Joe to get credit for what he meant to so much of fantsy, and wanted to do some youtube videos about it (while properly couching the language as suspicions I have, rather than direct accusations, as I could be wrong in some facets.)
Noodnics are almost certainly the inspiration for some of what became the Skaven, as I do not believe the repeated word at end of sentence (man-man for Joe's Noodnic, every other damn word for Skaven) is a coincidence. I don't believe Queekish was invented by Goodwin, I have read that blog. It's more a pattern of borrowing by multiple authors over time, even taking names and then turning around and producing a product from them. It's one thing to take elves and even most of the greenskins lore from Tolkien, practically the inventor of the genre (with heavy influence from ancient sagas, etc.) It's another to steal from your former employee.
I should start a thread but I wanted to get feedback from some key individuals because I didn't want information out there that could taint or pre-empt an actual case. Some things are REMARKABLE coincidences that by themselves may be negligible, but when added together with all elements provide clear proof of repeated pattern of taking directly from Joe's works.
Here's a very easy example and one that isn't particularly offensive: Vashnaar. He's a Dark Elf who led an army of Chaos against Hexoatl (a Lizardman city) and was obliterated, I believe, by Mazdamundi. If it's not obvious that Vashna-Naar is the source of that name...But not only was he a Dark Elf, he was a chosen of the Chaos Gods, and met his end only in a cataclysmic individual battle upon which the future (at least of the Lizardmen) seemed to hinge. Sound familiar?
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Post by rhygar on Jul 7, 2021 21:12:34 GMT
... while we also see a Noodnic in 1984 in FotW. Now the Noodnic could have been Joe's idea, but one does wonder you know. Top marks for you GhostofLandar - I just saw a posting on the LW Facebook group and it goes as follows: So I had a conversation with Gary Chalk a while back (he illustrated the titular story of my book, The Silver Path) about the Durenor race of Noodnics.
According to Gary, Joe Dever was NOT keen on the Noodnics, which were an insert from Gary. Consequently they never featured ever again, Gary intimating that Joe hated the idea of the sentient rodent people. |
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Post by GhostofLandar on Jul 15, 2021 16:43:13 GMT
Joe must have gotten over it because you know, Vazhag. That's why I thought the Vazhag were some sort of homage to the plagiarism of GW like a "yeah here's sentient rat-men involved in plague producing but they're subordinates.) But perhaps he didn't like rat people who were too cute and seemed like they were part of some other fantasy setting.
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Post by wisestrider on Jul 16, 2021 2:37:50 GMT
While I don't know, I can say that Chalk's illustration seems to have defined Games Workshop illustration styles for 1.5-2 decades. Look at the army books and other art, it's all very reminiscent in the faces of Chalk's work, proportions, even as it began to evolve. It does seem Gary did more than draw and I find it quite striking that he was involved in Redwall's illustration which first came out in 1986, while we also see a Noodnic in 1984 in FotW. Now the Noodnic could have been Joe's idea, but one does wonder you know. I am strongly of the opinion (actually mostly fact from the case I can construct) that GW plagiarized and borrowed-on-border-of-stole from Joe multiple times for many of their major faction ideas and story notes. They even stole Joe's way of making Noodnic's talk "Durenese man-man" repeating the word for "Queekish" language of the Skaven. In fact, Skaven itself was likely taken in a flight of inspiration, NOT from a shortening of Scavenge (which I'm sure would be the legal defense in court) but from the Sommlending town of AnSKAVEN. At one point I thought Gamesworkshop also was interested in using Magnamund as the setting for Warhammer? And both Joe & Gary worked there when the Warhammer World would have first been created (the first edition of Warhammer released in 1983 - the setting itself really started to take shape in the 1984 Second Edition - Skaven were included in the Bestiary for the First Edition - Flight From the Dark was published in 1984 - Warlock of Firetop Mountain released in 1982 - lot's of potential for Joe & Gary to have had some hand in the early root's of the Warhammer World). Who's to say Joe & Gary didn't pitch idea's taken from their personal projects while working there? Would be perfectly legitimate for GW to use those idea's from their, at the time, employees. Then at some point during that period the penny dropped & both Joe & Gary decided to publish their idea's themselves. As for Gary's influence on Lone Wolf - at GW he was employed as a "game development manager" as well as working as a freelance artist (Heroquest released in 1989 - 2 years after Jungle of Horrors - though not sure if he was paid by GW or MB for that - he does seem to have been getting illustrations published in White Dwarf continously through the 80's into the early 90's as far as I can tell). He got his job at GW after making a game called "Cry Havoc" & around 1991 created "Fantasy Warlord" - so maybe the theory about game balancing has something to it (maybe he helped develop the combat table / game rules?) - he certainly wasn't just an illustrator in the 80's. |
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Post by wisestrider on Jul 16, 2021 2:52:59 GMT
Was Gary Chalk ‘only’ the illustrator or did he play a role in the stories and the writing too? Dever and Chalk met at Games Workshop in, what, 1982 or 3? So did Gary Chalk play in Joe's campaign in the way that Ian Page did? Anyone know? See my post above - Gary was employed by GW as a game developer & had already made Cry Havoc before starting there. I've seen an interview that suggests Gary & Joe knew each other before GW & Gary did play D&D as well as wargames but doesn't mention if he played D&D with Joe (he only specifically mentions playing Laserburn & Reaper with Joe). realmofchaos80s.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-lone-wolf-interview-with-gary-chalk.html?m=1 |
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Post by GhostofLandar on Aug 17, 2021 16:02:59 GMT
While I don't know, I can say that Chalk's illustration seems to have defined Games Workshop illustration styles for 1.5-2 decades. Look at the army books and other art, it's all very reminiscent in the faces of Chalk's work, proportions, even as it began to evolve. It does seem Gary did more than draw and I find it quite striking that he was involved in Redwall's illustration which first came out in 1986, while we also see a Noodnic in 1984 in FotW. Now the Noodnic could have been Joe's idea, but one does wonder you know. I am strongly of the opinion (actually mostly fact from the case I can construct) that GW plagiarized and borrowed-on-border-of-stole from Joe multiple times for many of their major faction ideas and story notes. They even stole Joe's way of making Noodnic's talk "Durenese man-man" repeating the word for "Queekish" language of the Skaven. In fact, Skaven itself was likely taken in a flight of inspiration, NOT from a shortening of Scavenge (which I'm sure would be the legal defense in court) but from the Sommlending town of AnSKAVEN. At one point I thought Gamesworkshop also was interested in using Magnamund as the setting for Warhammer? And both Joe & Gary worked there when the Warhammer World would have first been created (the first edition of Warhammer released in 1983 - the setting itself really started to take shape in the 1984 Second Edition - Skaven were included in the Bestiary for the First Edition - Flight From the Dark was published in 1984 - Warlock of Firetop Mountain released in 1982 - lot's of potential for Joe & Gary to have had some hand in the early root's of the Warhammer World). Who's to say Joe & Gary didn't pitch idea's taken from their personal projects while working there? Would be perfectly legitimate for GW to use those idea's from their, at the time, employees. Then at some point during that period the penny dropped & both Joe & Gary decided to publish their idea's themselves. As for Gary's influence on Lone Wolf - at GW he was employed as a "game development manager" as well as working as a freelance artist (Heroquest released in 1989 - 2 years after Jungle of Horrors - though not sure if he was paid by GW or MB for that - he does seem to have been getting illustrations published in White Dwarf continously through the 80's into the early 90's as far as I can tell). He got his job at GW after making a game called "Cry Havoc" & around 1991 created "Fantasy Warlord" - so maybe the theory about game balancing has something to it (maybe he helped develop the combat table / game rules?) - he certainly wasn't just an illustrator in the 80's. The only bestiary I find for that time is Ravening Hordes which came out in 1987. This link goes into the history of the Skaven: warhammerbattlemarch.fandom.com/wiki/Skaven seems everyone agrees on 1986. Of note is that they were a giveaway offer earlier in 1986 but that still leaves a gap of at least a year or more. As for whether it's acceptable to take from an employee whose work you're interested in buying and controlling (thank God, can you imagine how bad Magnamund would have ended up being?) when they refuse your offer, generally, I'd say no. I should also say, I don't know that the source of theft or borrowing is always the same (meaning the same person.) The person who clearly plagiarized Zorkaan and the demon possession element from Trail of the Wolf and the Screaming God Steth-Amon and the Neverness from Ian Page and Grey Star is a well-known Warhammer novelist (Tz'arkan is the demon, the Screaming God Child and Othernesse are what they call these things in WH.) As we know from the Magnamund Companion (I swear at some point this was called Compendium in the US or in advertisements), Ixia is the Land of the Dead (yes, I know it's Egypt but go along for a bit with me) but it's an ancient and dead civilization, an entire people cursed into undeath in a single moment due to a Deathlord (Ixiataaga for LW...later Nagash for WH.) As is the WH way, they modeled the dead civilization of walking skeletons and arcane technology (hmm) on an Earth civilization but the idea and the origin of the undead civilization is...strikingly familiar. Then there's the Chaos Dwarfs industrial Dark Lands (see, there's a space in it! wow so creative) and they even have a sort of train...many years after Joe Dever developed the lajakeka and dark steampunk of the Darklands. Dwarf Thunderbarge. Hmm, is that anything like the airships seen since 1985 in Magnamund with dwarves on them (though not invented by them perhaps)? You can look up the dates and timelines of all these things, Dever is just about always first. I've long laughed at the Dark Elf "Vashnaar" who is evil and brings with him a Chaos army...or Sunfang, Tyrion's Not-Sommerswerd that, again, came after the Sommerswerd (long after) but is sun-powered in its way (or forged) and was...oh yeah it was lost millenia ago and recovered by Tyrion "Not-Lone Wolf." Oh interesting, his brother the MAGE Teclis has the crescent moon as his symbol. If this were really a case of cross-pollination of the "milieu" favoring independent inventions, we'd see more original stuff in WH that made its way over to Lone Wolf/Grey Star. |
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