SPOILER FILLED discussion on The Dusk of Eternal Night

[GhostofLandar]

I agree, in principle, with what Black Cat says about book/section length. But I want to stress to Vincent that it THIS IS THE LAST OF JOE'S STORY. Others may continue it (depending on if the Final Battle is truly the end or just the beginning of the end) but these are his notes and ideas for the conclusion of the Lone Wolf and New Order (mine is named True Heart, make that canon!) Kai saga and I want as much story and appropriate lore as humanly possible. I wrote to Joe back in 2016 that the grief showed by the Watchers over the deaths they saw was a sign of the maturation and freedom Joe had in gamebooks he controlled. It feels fitting, to me at least, that these gamebooks, stories, and characters expand and grow as we, his original readers, have also done so. Love, loss, family, grief, achieving some measure of our 'destiny,' regret, redemption are all something we can relate to more than as 10 year olds and have greater weight in our lives today. That's why the (nothing was in this book, but I assume it is coming in 32) teased redemption of Vonotar, something that would never have happened before, is so exciting. And this has all been done without "subverting our expectations" by spitting on the characters and setting and themes we have come to love as has happened with so many fantastical universes of late.

Also, Magnamund/Aon/LW is easily the best fantasy setting ever made by someone not named Tolkien with the right mix of traditional high fantasy, steampunk and alternative technological elements, and creatures and a mythos that are simply better. I personally prefer LW to Tolkien but of course, we go to these books for different reasons. Some of the most affective (not even nostalgia, they give a different impression of the Age of War, the Elder Magi, Shasarak, etc.) portions of Dusk are the visions of the past (in more detail than the genocide of the Nebora we 'see' in Masters of Darkness) and how our characters feel about them. Even Shasarak's temptation of the NO Kai to close off Magnamund from the wars of the Gods helps contextualize the threat and promise of the Shianti, as well as functions as a throwback to Captain Kelman's dialogue in Grant's novel. Who else was surprised not just by the appearance of Sesketera and Oriah, but the dialogue and power of that scene? That is what I would NOT want to lose under any circumstances. Even things like the sorcerer of Tharrayn incorporate newer elements but do not overwhelm the story.

So I would caution Vincent and Ben to not strip down anything, at least not in characterization and lore (at least not the lore directly created by Joe.) I concur that the different sections that take into account your skills, items you've picked up, etc. in RN outcomes, or in combat are quite detailed and offer some choice/variety where it is otherwise difficult to do with mastery of almost all disciplines. I assume that's also the reason for the three different branching paths at 145.

So after all that praise, what's my one critique? Some of the names? Joe, to me, always seemed to distinguish himself from inferior fantasy settings through his names. Even creating a language so that a more textured meaning and immersion could be drawn from Giak or Sommlending or Vassa. Sure, you'll get things like Darklord Haakon, which is right from Norwegian royalty but it's not a direct analog and therefore you can divorce the name from its Earth context. Gnaag, Vashna, Agarash, Tagazin, Zantaz, Nza'pok, even Shamath, Avarvae, Kai, and Salor all stand on their own. I don't think of anything in "Earth language or history" when I see these names. They are not even really related to the traits of that demon or god.

But I feel a dip in immersion in Dever's setting when I see "Plagazar" for a plague focused Demonlord, Pyrash for a Fire Elemental, and Funghaar for a fungus controlling Child of Agarash. I have retconned this in my head that it's the Sommlending root with the Ul Naarwak suffix. But do please avoid that in the fuutre.

[zorkraan]

@ghostoflandar, that's one of the most lovely review we've ever had, thank you so much! So delighted by your response to the Oriah-Sesketera scene and Shasarak's attempt to corrupt the KGM (with somehow convincing, objective arguments, seems you are a lot to have enjoyed this specific scene). Thanks also for your support regarding character fleshing out and lore, it matters too! We just have to find the perfect balance (of Aon) but of course I won't give up what I prefer to write, and given all the notes Joe has left behind.

And SORRY for the names you pointed out, I must admit we were uninspired regarding those (Pyrash being actually related to the canon name of Magnamund's "Star of Fire" in the rpg). The other new place/creature/character names in the gamebook are all from Joe, to the notable exceptions of the Macrophaargs and Tracheodyls in the Crypt of A (other references to a trait, my very bad...).

[andyc]

Jan 3, 2021 9:34:14 GMT GhostofLandar said:

I agree, in principle, with what Black Cat says about book/section length. But I want to stress to Vincent that it THIS IS THE LAST OF JOE'S STORY. Others may continue it (depending on if the Final Battle is truly the end or just the beginning of the end) but these are his notes and ideas for the conclusion of the Lone Wolf and New Order (mine is named True Heart, make that canon!) Kai saga and I want as much story and appropriate lore as humanly possible. I wrote to Joe back in 2016 that the grief showed by the Watchers over the deaths they saw was a sign of the maturation and freedom Joe had in gamebooks he controlled. It feels fitting, to me at least, that these gamebooks, stories, and characters expand and grow as we, his original readers, have also done so. Love, loss, family, grief, achieving some measure of our 'destiny,' regret, redemption are all something we can relate to more than as 10 year olds and have greater weight in our lives today. That's why the (nothing was in this book, but I assume it is coming in 32) teased redemption of Vonotar, something that would never have happened before, is so exciting. And this has all been done without "subverting our expectations" by spitting on the characters and setting and themes we have come to love as has happened with so many fantastical universes of late.

Also, Magnamund/Aon/LW is easily the best fantasy setting ever made by someone not named Tolkien with the right mix of traditional high fantasy, steampunk and alternative technological elements, and creatures and a mythos that are simply better. I personally prefer LW to Tolkien but of course, we go to these books for different reasons. Some of the most affective (not even nostalgia, they give a different impression of the Age of War, the Elder Magi, Shasarak, etc.) portions of Dusk are the visions of the past (in more detail than the genocide of the Nebora we 'see' in Masters of Darkness) and how our characters feel about them. Even Shasarak's temptation of the NO Kai to close off Magnamund from the wars of the Gods helps contextualize the threat and promise of the Shianti, as well as functions as a throwback to Captain Kelman's dialogue in Grant's novel. Who else was surprised not just by the appearance of Sesketera and Oriah, but the dialogue and power of that scene? That is what I would NOT want to lose under any circumstances. Even things like the sorcerer of Tharrayn incorporate newer elements but do not overwhelm the story.

So I would caution Vincent and Ben to not strip down anything, at least not in characterization and lore (at least not the lore directly created by Joe.) I concur that the different sections that take into account your skills, items you've picked up, etc. in RN outcomes, or in combat are quite detailed and offer some choice/variety where it is otherwise difficult to do with mastery of almost all disciplines. I assume that's also the reason for the three different branching paths at 145.

So after all that praise, what's my one critique? Some of the names? Joe, to me, always seemed to distinguish himself from inferior fantasy settings through his names. Even creating a language so that a more textured meaning and immersion could be drawn from Giak or Sommlending or Vassa. Sure, you'll get things like Darklord Haakon, which is right from Norwegian royalty but it's not a direct analog and therefore you can divorce the name from its Earth context. Gnaag, Vashna, Agarash, Tagazin, Zantaz, Nza'pok, even Shamath, Avarvae, Kai, and Salor all stand on their own. I don't think of anything in "Earth language or history" when I see these names. They are not even really related to the traits of that demon or god.

But I feel a dip in immersion in Dever's setting when I see "Plagazar" for a plague focused Demonlord, Pyrash for a Fire Elemental, and Funghaar for a fungus controlling Child of Agarash. I have retconned this in my head that it's the Sommlending root with the Ul Naarwak suffix. But do please avoid that in the fuutre.

Very eloquently put sir and I strongly agree with you on all of what you said. I suspect almost all the readers are adults now, so the greater depth is very much appreciated.
I also agree on the issue with those three names, though I had not realised why they felt slightly jarring till now. Good spot.

[Black Cat]

Alright, I've read the other two paths (I've picked the Kelderwaste path the first time around). Both are interesting for all the background they give on our former arch-enemies. But I think that when I will play the book, I will pick the Kelderwaste again, just for the fact that you get the chance to regain all your EP (and more!) before the "boss fight" (I don't know if there are opportunities like that in the other paths). Yeah, I know, it's precognition and might be considered as cheating but, hey, I promise I won't read book 32 before playing it!

[andyzero]

So in terms of the Dessi Stone.   It works on any non-Special Item weapon.  

Are there any weapons with bonuses that _aren't_ Special Items?  For example, the Chai Spear in Hunger of Sejanoz is described such.

"You are especially impressed by the Kirusami—the halberd-like polearms that are issued only to the Imperial Guardsmen like Chan. Its craftsmanship and balance are superb. (If you wish to keep one of these weapons, record it on your Weapons List as a Chai Spear. In combat it will add 1 to your COMBAT SKILL.)"

Any other "non-Special Item" weapons with bonuses good for the Dessi stone?

[Black Cat]

Jan 5, 2021 3:40:05 GMT andyzero said:

Are there any weapons with bonuses that _aren't_ Special Items? For example, the Chai Spear in Hunger of Sejanoz is described such.
"You are especially impressed by the Kirusami—the halberd-like polearms that are issued only to the Imperial Guardsmen like Chan. Its craftsmanship and balance are superb. (If you wish to keep one of these weapons, record it on your Weapons List as a Chai Spear. In combat it will add 1 to your COMBAT SKILL.)"

It is never stated that the Kirusami in book 28 is NOT a Special item, although it is not said that it is one either. However, in book 29, section 125, Anseng's Kirusami also takes the slot of a normal weapon and confers the same bonus as the Kirusami of book 28 but it is specified that it is a Special Item.

"Anseng’s Kirusami is a Special Item, but you must carry it as a Weapon slung suspended by a thin leather strap across your back. Although it is a Special Item, it should be recorded in the Weapons section of your Action Chart. If you already have the maximum number of weapons permissible, you must now discard one in its favour. In combat, the superior craftsmanship and balance of this Chai weapon will add 1 to your COMBAT SKILL."

Based on that, I think that book 28's Kirusami should be noted as a Special Item that also takes a slot on the Weapon List, just like Anseng's Kirusami in book 29. I think that Joe just overlooked to specify that it is a Special Item. Now that this problem has been raised, I'll let the good people of Project Aon and Vincent Lazzari decide what to do with that before the republication of book 28 by Holmgard Press (hopefully before the end of 2021!).

And as for your question regarding weapons that are not Special Item that still give a bonus, I currently have no clue if there are weapons like that in the series. The only exception would be book 17 where LW also gets a Dessi Stone for his weapon, which gives the bonus of inflicting double EP losses against an undead opponent in combat. The weapon will still be listed as a regular weapon though.

[andyzero]

Yeah, but Anseng's Kirusami was a Special Item because it became magic and it was a "Plot-Weapon" so to speak. Say the Dessi Stone offer was made In Storms of Chai. It makes sense you couldn't tie a Dessi Stone to it because that would lead to two enchantments.

I don't see why "being made really well" would prevent a Dessi Stone from fusing with a weapon. Now, if it's specifically enchanted, or made of magic metal, naturally it wouldn't work.

[kurz81]

All Chai imperial armory weapons from lw29 have +cs bonus.
However you are forced to lose one to save the bow.
projectaon.proboards.com/thread/2801/lw29-visual-walkthrough-storms-chai

You can also get the black kagonite sword +2cs from lw30.
projectaon.proboards.com/thread/2862/lw30-visual-walkthrough-dead-deep
I suggest using the dessi stone on this black sword.

You can find +cs naarvakim weapons during LW31, so you could use the dessi stone later, but the undead army is in the first part of the story, so you would miss the point.

Basically a normal weapon is not a magical item. If you add the dessi stone on it, it becomes a special item. You can't have a double magic enchantment on the same weapon.

According to my first analysis, the kelderwaste path is best for giving a permanent stats bonus (at least +2end overall).

I'm currently working on a walkthrough, but I'm taking it slowly to not spoil too much too soon.

Best regards, Kurz

[andyzero]

Nah, I can understand the Dessi Stone not working with anything made of Kagonite.    That's why I said I don't see it working with anything made of magic metal.  Kagonite, Bronin, Korlinium, etc.     But especially Kagonite, because that's the dark (spooky) metal, and the Naarvakim weapons and armor are a Kagonite alloy.

As for being forced to lose one of the weapons you can get in the Storms of Chai, what if you put it in the Drodarin Bag of Holding?

[jmisno1]

Jan 6, 2021 4:48:10 GMT andyzero said:

Nah, I can understand the Dessi Stone not working with anything made of Kagonite.    That's why I said I don't see it working with anything made of magic metal.  Kagonite, Bronin, Korlinium, etc.     But especially Kagonite, because that's the dark (spooky) metal, and the Naarvakim weapons and armor are a Kagonite alloy.

As for being forced to lose one of the weapons you can get in the Storms of Chai, what if you put it in the Drodarin Bag of Holding?

As far as I'm concerned when losing 1 weapon that is either chosen at random or is chosen by the reader the reason, which only applies in or after Book 26, that you can choose to lose A Weapon that counts A Special Item is because you can't store them in your Drodarin Bag of Holding and the reason why you can't store them in your Drodarin Bag of Holding is because they are all at least slightly too big to fit in A/The Drodarin Bag of Holding

[kolinovic]

Having picked up books 30 and 31 in recent weeks I though I'd add my tuppence here.
Firstly, they're fantastic LW books, up there with the best of them. I can only imagine how frustrating it was for Joe to have had this finale in his head for so long without releasing them himself. For the first time, the discovery that there were more than 12 books in the series doesn't feel like a slight let-down, the overarching story works perfectly (or appears to, can't wait to see how Gwynian's prophecy plays out!).
In relation to Dusk of Eternal Night in particular, I think the balance between providing a range of pathways with the narrative of the book plays well. Having two Supreme Masters facing off against Vashna/Nengud-Kor-Adez and Agarash works perfectly in terms of the book itself and the broader narrative. The descriptions are well worked, the interactions with Blazer/Grey Star/Oriah/Acraban work well and add a new dimension to how interactive a gamebook can be. As has been said, Dever had a huge talent for brevity which clearly isn't there in this book, though I can't see how he could have gotten his story across better than Ben and Vincent have done.
Finally a word about the illustrations - they're really good and I think the artist is hitting his stride after the, mediocre is too harsh a word as some of them are very good, work in Book 30.
It's just a pity the whole series couldn't be completed back during the golden age of gamebooks, as this trilogy deserves to be recognised as the greatest achievement of the genre.

[Black Cat]

Jan 14, 2021 12:57:12 GMT kolinovic said:

Finally a word about the illustrations - they're really good and I think the artist is hitting his stride after the, mediocre is too harsh a word as some of them are very good, work in Book 30.

Among the illustrators of the original publication of the series, I have always prefered Brian Williams over Gary Chalk (and Trevor Newton, but he only did book 21). With the republication of the series, Richard Longmore (books 1 to 12, 17 and 20) was my favorite as I thought he was the closest we could get of Brian Williams' style. But since book 30, Nerdgore's art has won me over. If Holmgard Press indeed republish all the series with this artist, readers will have very solid art to go with their books.

[kolinovic]

There's probably a separate thread's worth of conversation on that issue! I'd have Gary Chalk and Brian Williams on a par, possibly as Chalk's more cartoonish style suited a younger LW while Williams suited a more mature hero. The New Order art I always felt was fine but not much more than that. The only reproduction I've seen was the rewrite of FftD, and the art actually feels quite Fighting Fantasy to me? Is that style carried through the rest of Longmore's work?
I'm also a little ambivalent about republishing the books with one artist doing the lot, as for me nostalgia is a big part of loving the series, and the artwork is a big part of that...

[zorkraan]

Jan 14, 2021 12:57:12 GMT kolinovic said:

Having picked up books 30 and 31 in recent weeks I though I'd add my tuppence here. For the first time, the discovery that there were more than 12 books in the series doesn't feel like a slight let-down, the overarching story works perfectly (or appears to, can't wait to see how Gwynian's prophecy plays out!).

My gosh, that's the best compliment we've ever received - thank you so much kolinovic, especially coming from a long-term fan like you. wow!

Jan 14, 2021 12:57:12 GMT kolinovic said:

In relation to Dusk of Eternal Night in particular, I think the balance between providing a range of pathways with the narrative of the book plays well. Having two Supreme Masters facing off against Vashna/Nengud-Kor-Adez and Agarash works perfectly in terms of the book itself and the broader narrative. The descriptions are well worked, the interactions with Blazer/Grey Star/Oriah/Acraban work well and add a new dimension to how interactive a gamebook can be. As has been said, Dever had a huge talent for brevity which clearly isn't there in this book, though I can't see how he could have gotten his story across better than Ben and Vincent have done. It's just a pity the whole series couldn't be completed back during the golden age of gamebooks, as this trilogy deserves to be recognised as the greatest achievement of the genre.

I admit "brevity" and "concision" are clearly not one of my strengths whereas it was one of Joe's best qualities - fortunately Ben is able to summarize my prose a LOT and make it less indigestible. And I agree with you that LW, independently of our work, will remain as the greatest gamebook series ever, but I'm not impartial here ;-). I'm delighted you enjoyed the interactions on the skyship, it was a brand new gameplay we dared to experiment.

[kurz81]

Let's talk about the game play.
What are in your opinion the most important items to get and most useful path to follow?
In my opinion the shield with +3cs and kelderwoods path leading to improved dessi stone +2cs or improved platinum amulet +2end.
You will get Sesketera's spear in the main path so it's not really a choice...
Other paths are interesting but they seem to not give permanent boost for the next book.