I'd Have Rather... (a New Order Wish)

[Al]

I am not a writer, merely a critic...
I know that FF is not regarded as the best series here, but they managed to put out 60 gamebooks that each had a fairly different plot and were not based on building up skills etc.
I am sure that their are literally thousands of story lines that you could have, from fighting inner city theives guilds, to assasinating an evil ruler to searching for a lost artifact to protecting a religious leader... the list goes on and on...
But I agree that as a publisher, it is probably best to hedge your bet on the power characters
Al

[Dusk Fox]

shadowfalcon said:

one that would be intersting is playing from the standpoint of a young cener druid and rebuildig hte forcesof darkness and gaining your own power would be quite interesting

While I appreciate the thought, the thread really wasn't started to discuss "What would make a cool game book?" so much as "What would you rather have seen the NO books be?" with the option of rather having Banedon books (which was actually considered), more GS books (since that series was woefully short), or a Giak adventure (which was a joke).

[Dusk Fox]

outspaced said:

Thing about that scenario, DF, is that it's exactly the same as Flight from the Dark, which would make it more repetitive than epic. Purely from a publishing standpoint, no company would want to embark upon another 20-book series, especially one that repeats the existing series right from the start. And I'm not sure I'd want to read one.

It is not exactly the same. You're not the sole survivor (you're just the only Kai Lord in the vicinity), you're not being hunted down by all the enemies (you're caught in an attack, and later on you're trying to escape), and... and... whatever. At their core, all Lone Wolf books are the same, anyway. You have a goal and the bad guys try to stop you. Truth be told, the plot is more like "Shadow on the Sand" than it is "Flight from the Dark."

outspaced said:

As for the less generic bit--I've spent 20 books playing the most important man in the world, Lone Wolf. To then be told, "He's too tough now; so he's being retired, but another named character is being raised up," would be very anti-climactic. The idea that the Grand master is named is to say he's now the most important character on Magnamund, almost as though Lone Wolf is an irrelevance. Hmm . . . I know what I mean, I'm just failing at explaining it. :-\ Fact is, an unnamed Kai Grand Master with no background 'baggage' is preferable. Otherwise you get the feeling that this Kai Lord will supercede Lone Wolf in a very long-running series of adventures . . . boring! I've stopped reading series in the past, or have refused to start reading them, because the author is dragging things out unnecessarily over too many books. Or maybe that he will discover a new level beyond Kai Supreme Master and get another series of books in his quest to attain that, which would just be silly.

Okay, that really didn't make sense.

It's better to play an unnamed Kai Grand Master with no background info at all (so basically a dude who springs out of nowhere) than one who actually has some semblance of personality, so you know a bit about why Lone Wolf chose him in the first place? The problem with playing a Grand Master is exactly that he feels like a Lone Wolf replacement--Lone Wolf is now in Epic Levels, so we're going to give you some less interesting character to play who's "only" level 17 instead. The fact that he would somehow come to overshadow Lone Wolf is a direct result of him starting out as a Grand Master--you're much less likely to see that happen with a random Initiate, and you don't have to try as hard to throw the butt-kickingest villains at him, either.

outspaced said:

You invest in Lone Wolf as a character because he's the last; when there are many Kai Lords, there's no real need to invest as much into the character; after all, he's entirely expendable--which is as it should be.

This is different with a Grand Master who doesn't even have a name?

Honestly, the character isn't expendable because *drumroll* you're playing him. This is rather like saying Banedon is expendable because there are plenty of people in the Brotherhood of the Crystal Star, and we all know he's valuable.

In short, I just don't agree with your assessment. It feels like you're justifying your choice by pointing out flaws in starting as an Initiate and not applying the same obvious flaws to starting as a nameless Grand Master.

outspaced said:

Ever play Neverwinter Nights and the expansions? In the first game, you start off at 1st level. In the expansion games, you start off at (IIRC) 6th or 7th level. This is because the game would be too difficult at low levels, but also too long and boring. All the interesting stuff would have to be removed to make way for 1 Hit Dice creatures. So while I understand and agree about returning to Level 1, certain games/scenarios require that you have previously attained a certain level of experience so that you can skip the introductory/beginner stuff and get straight into the plot. The NO series is just like that--skip the CS10 EP 12 Giaks and get right to the action. After all, there was an over-arcing plot to the NO series (whatever it was ), one that would have been impossible had the player been a wet-behind-the-ears Initiate; rather than 12 books it would have taken a further 24 (5 for Kai, 7 for Magnakai, 12 for Grand Master). That's an awful lot of "filler" material to get to any kind of satisfactory conclusion, which is apparently what Book 32 would have been.

A few notes...

First, I don't play video games. I can't even be arsed to read that entire paragraph because while I understand it, the 'Lone Wolf is not a video game' mantra keeps sounding in the back of my head, and I find I've ignored a few sentences. It's not your fault, but you're just not going to win me over with a video game analogy.

Secondly, you'd be starting at essentially the same "level" as Lone Wolf in "Flight from the Dark. " That's not Level 1, that's like Level 5. Saying there's nothing fun you could do at those levels is like saying nothing cool happens in the first five Lone Wolf books.

In short... pfffft. I scoff at your reasoning!

[outspaced]

It is exactly the same story--lone survivor must go for help. Though there are archetype Lone Wolf adventures (i.e. travel great distances against time), they are acceptable because of the specific plot points; but the one you mentioned seems devoid of all originality.

Magnamund, unlike most other RPG worlds, does change, and the changes Lone Wolf has wrought cannot be undone simply by some piddling Drakkar war party, but if it was anything more than that, how and why would the Initiate survive? In view of these changes in the localised area of the Lastlands, why would a mere Initiate be involved in goings-on thousands of miles away? Droppping back down to Level 1 would stifle the such continuity.

Though why an Initiate would be out there in the wilds boggles the mind when they stayed in the Monastery until the rank of Journeyman. Unless you want an unrealistic "Wesley"-style knowitall prodigy as the main character . . . ?

It also completely disregards everything Lone Wolf has achieved in peacekeeping so far. Why do you think Lone Wolf has to travel such distances on his adventures? Because the local area is pretty much swept clean of opponents.

Re: the bit you think is justification of my opinion--of course it is, it's what my opinion is based on! What other justification could there be? I just can't articulate my thoughts on it very well into words. If I could Mindblast my thoughts/feelings on the matter they might make more sense. Even what I've written mostly makes sense to me, but I can see why it might seem like rambling nonsense. Good job I never tried to make it as a writer!

Basically, by having another named character you're setting him up as being another Lone Wolf--i.e. another singular hero. But the cadre of Grand Masters is not singular, there are a number of them, as there should be under Lone Wolf's leadership. So an individual one is expendable inasmuch as there could always be another to take his place; no one could take Lone Wolf's place as he was utterly unique. Ahah! By creating another singularly unique character Joe would be undermining the character of Lone Wolf by making the new character seem to be his equal. Which to me seems very similar to creating a new level beyond Kai Supreme Master. Or something along those lines in a vague way. Maybe.

Re: computer games--But gamebooks are still games, and many issues are common to both. And no, it's level 1 because it's the most basic starting point! I scoff at your ignoring my well-thought-out reasoning! Furthermore, I was talking about an official Dungeons and Dragons 3.5E game, so it's the RPG system and game-balance I'm talking about rather than pixels or coding. And yes, gamebooks do need difficulty levels, and starting way back at Initiate levels is too restrictive both from a gameplay and a narrative viewpoint.

I think, uh . . . [checks] Al makes a good point about FF--they were sustainable because the adventures had little or nothing tying them all together; virtually all of them were individual. This is great from a difficulty-balancing standpoint as it's impossible to bring in the Ultra Sword of Magic Resistance from a previous adventure, making balancing easier. In practical terms, however, this means all opponents must have stats in a very narrowly-defined band. So even if you're fighting the Dragon God, his SKILL will only be a small number above the maximum of 12. Lone Wolf opponents are much tougher, requiring higher stats and skill levels. To reduce all that foreknowledge the reader has back down to low stats and skills would reduce continuity (again), and also seem a little bit silly, almost a parody of Lone Wolf.

I'm not attempting to change anyone's mind, but I hope my comments are food for thought.

Wonder how many typos slipped through this time?

[Dusk Fox]

I wouldn't want to count the typos, Outs--I'd end up more OCD than I already am.

So… agree to disagree, Doc. You’re viewing the idea (which is, by the way, a generic idea--I’m not saying it should be that adventure, I’m saying it could be, and I created it as an example) as a copy of “Flight from the Dark” when I clearly stole it from “the Skull of Agarash.” The point of the adventure isn’t to escape and warn everyone, it’s to rescue the captives (running back to the Monastery comes later). And… you’re out with a Kai Diplomat. For the hell of it. Because you can. What makes you such an expert on the Kai, anyway? I hope you’re not using the RPG as your source of information, considering how many things they seem to have gotten wrong….

By the way, listening to the way you talk about Lone Wolf and Magnamund, it’s like there can be no adventure beyond Lone Wolf, and Grey Star and the NO books prove that this is not the case. They don’t all have to be “Fight this week’s new powerful enemy!” Grey Star got into his share of tough scrapes, but there was more to the adventure than that. There’s a lot of potential in Magnamund, and it doesn’t all have to be constantly epic to make for a good story. In fact, I feel like the pale imitation of Lone Wolf is the random Grand Master who has most of his powers but no real personality, and is just going around doing the stuff that Lone Wolf would do if he wasn’t so ungodly powerful. At least with a less powerful character you can believe in the difficulty of the task (relative to your abilities) and yet not feel like you’re just some pale shadow of the ubermensch you just spent 20 books with, eradicating evil. Going my route is no less believable than the route the NO actually took, except (as NS said) something had to be done about the Moonstone.

And by the by, your reasoning for not having a named character is weak. You don’t want to give him a name to make him another Lone Wolf? How is it better for him not to have a name at all? What’s so bad about the idea that Lone Wolf takes one of the Grand Masters for one reason or another and says, “Hey, Stone Rooster--go guard the Moonstone.” I mean, that’s what he actually did, right? So your character has a name (he must), it’s just not given in the story, nor is any background, so the character is bland and lifeless and exists as an excuse to use Grand Master disciplines.

Lame.

And you’re not going to win the video game debate, because there’s nothing to win. I don’t play video games, which leaves me at the disadvantage of not caring about the reasoning. It’s not that you didn’t have a good point, it’s that you went a route with it that I just couldn’t be arsed to follow.

At any rate, we’re from two different schools. The real problem here isn’t that we disagree (I can live with that). It’s that I totally don’t understand your reasoning. I mean, you have really lost me as to why it’s so great to have a nameless Grand Master as a character. This seems to me to be the worst of all possible worlds. There is no challenge having gotten to that rank; you’re just there. You don’t have a story, a personality, or even a definite name. You’re just some powerful nobody out fighting evil, and why? Because Lone Wolf is too powerful to play anymore. And that just seems like a sad reason to have this character. Part of the fun for me was growing in power as Lone Wolf, and it’s just no fun when you start out that powerful already.

[Black Cat]

duskfox said:

I mean, you have really lost me as to why it’s so great to have a nameless Grand Master as a character. This seems to me to be the worst of all possible worlds.

I voted for the statu quo, although I wouldn't hate to see the adventures of Banedon (which Joe tried to make, but somehow something went wrong) or the second series of Grey Star. I know someone wrote a fanfic series about a Drakkarim (if someone can find the link, post it).

Alright, my thoughts on the nameless GM: I prefer to see a nameless GM than a named one. After book 20, you don't play as Lone Wolf anymore, the guy that was once named Landar and Silent Wolf, that has a death brother, that has a sister named Kari, that entered the monastery at the age of 6... You don't have a past that is imposed to you. You can use your imagination to create the past of the GM that you are playing based on your own life. I think it is a good way to give the feeling to the player that you are really a part of the story, that YOU are the hero, not that you are ACTING as Lone Wolf the hero. After all, we are talking about a GAME-BOOK, which has a part for the game (the fun) and a part for litterature (the emotions). The use of a nameless GM helps create a feeling of proximity between the reader and the character.

[Dusk Fox]

I think people make a lot more of that "I am the character rather than playing as the character" idea than is really there. I mean, do you really feel that much more connected to the adventure because you're playing as Broken Wind (or whatever you call yourself) with no background instead of Lone Wolf with some background. In my case, I feel less attached, because I don't feel like my character has any roots in the world. Even then, it's not like it's a huge difference as far as "connectedness" goes--I'm pretty aware either way that it's not actually me mowing down Giaks like overgrown grass (and I'm grateful for that).

[Black Cat]

You know, I use my imagination to create a background to my character and feel more closer to him. If you don't want to use your imagination, that's your choice, but you will surely NOT feel closer to him like that.

[outspaced]

duskfox said:

And... you're out with a Kai Diplomat. For the hell of it. Because you can. What makes you such an expert on the Kai, anyway? I hope you're not using the RPG as your source of information, considering how many things they seem to have gotten wrong...

*shrug* What makes me an "expert" is reading the gamebooks and all the official stuff from the Newsletters and TMC by Joe Dever. If we ignore all Joe's work, why not have Hobbits on Magnamund; yeah, and laser guns as well! Let's make it cyberpunk.

By the way, listening to the way you talk about Lone Wolf and Magnamund, it's like there can be no adventure beyond Lone Wolf, and Grey Star and the NO books prove that this is not the case.

Actually, no they don't. They prove there can be other heroes on Magnamund, which is completely as it should be. But to go from being the sole survivor to taking on Naar himself is utterly unique. To be the Instrument of Kai is completely unique. Look at other forces of Good in the history of Magnamund: Nyxator had his dragons; the Elder Magi came forth as a group; as did the Shianti--only Lone Wolf took on the Darklords (and more) on his own, and won.

Grey Star is the sole human capable of practising Shianti magic, which is unique to him; but even with that he couldn't have taken out 5 Darklords singlehandedly, and destroyed the remaining 10 by proxy. Why was Banedon waiting in the Guildhall for Lone Wolf's return? He's the Guildmaster, the highest power in Left-handed magic; but he couldn't have undertaken the quest to Helgedad, only Lone Wolf could.

They don't all have to be"Fight this week's new powerful enemy!"; Grey Star got into his share of tough scrapes, but there was more to the adventure than that.

And the plotlines for the NO series are . . . what, exactly? Is there always a "This week's new powerful enemy"? No, which is as it should be. But dropping back down to Initiate level would mean all the good stuff this is in those books would have to be dropped or put off to make way for adventures retreading much of the old ground that the original books did. Initiates would not be in Southern Magnamund. Adventures would be limited to Sommerlund, The Wild-lands, Durenor, maybe Lyris. Places as readers we have already visited. They're nice, but I'd rather go further afield in new books; otherwise, why write new books?

There's a lot of potential in Magnamund, and it doesn't all have to be constantly epic to make for a good story.

No, it doesn't; but at Grand Master levels it does. Pointless otherwise.

In fact, I feel like the pale imitation of Lone Wolf is the random Grand Master who has most of his powers but no real personality, and is just going around doing the stuff that Lone Wolf would do if he wasn't so ungodly powerful. At least with a less powerful character you can believe in the difficulty of the task (relative to your abilities) and yet not feel like you're just some pale shadow of the ubermensch you just spent 20 books with, eradicating evil.

That's because you are. Magnamund isn't (thankfully) Generic Fantasy World^TM. As I pointed out before, it has a continuity. Evil exists not because of some philosophical babble about balance (a concept I have always detested), but because of a bet between Gods. Magnamund is the last planet in the Universe not to have fallen to Evil or committed itself to Good. It looked as though Naar had won when he destroyed the Monastery; and this isn't the Legends where every man and his dog is a latent Kai Lord. Over the course of 20 books, the one surviving Kai Lord swung the pendulum back in Good's favour.

SPOILER: Click to show

According to the text of The Curse of Naar, Naar wouldn't even materialise in Lone Wolf's presence because he believes the Sommerswerd could kill him. Over the GM series, Naar is throwing tougher and tougher opponents against Lone Wolf in an effort to destroy him and the New Order Kai because as long as Lone Wolf lives, Naar's failure is almost guaranteed.

Lone Wolf is therefore not some expendable rookie.

A named character would be saying that a new "super"hero is needed--well, no his isn't, really. Just a hero will do, thanks.

Going my route is no less believable than the route the NO actually took, except (as NS said) something had to be done about the Moonstone.

And the fact that Naar is doing everything in his power to maneuvre his most powerful pawns so as to keep a stranglehold on as many places as possible (Bhanar, for example). The more pawns he loses, the less influence he has, the more likely he will lose the Bet, and be reduced to nothingness for ever more. He's not going to be bothering with Giaks and Vordaks if he's in such a panic. Initiates aren't necessary to combat Naar's minions, then, Grand Masters are.

And by the by, your reasoning for not having a named character is weak.

No, your reason for wanting a named character is weak.

You don't want to give him a name to make him another Lone Wolf? How is it better for him not to have a name at all? What's so bad about the idea that Lone Wolf takes one of the Grand Masters for one reason or another and says, "Hey, Stone Rooster--go guard the Moonstone." I mean, that's what he actually did, right? So your character has a name (he must), it's just not given in the story, nor is any background, so the character is bland and lifeless and exists as an excuse to use Grand Master disciplines.

I don't see the need for another "super"hero in Magnamund, no. Hopefully, the extinction of Evil on Magnamund isn't far enough off to require another one in thre future, either. The lack of a name makes him/her less important as an individual (to the future of Magnamund) than Lone Wolf. Otherwise, it might just seem as though there will be a succession of "super"heroes for the rest of time. Which isn't even true, since prior to Lone Wolf, the last "super"hero was probably Sun Eagle. The Elder Magi and the Shinati work as collectives. Ikar and Skarn worked as individuals. Could the Grand Master (or even an initiate) have the same said of him/her? No--Lone Wolf is still around to teach/train them; even their weapon was forged by him. They are also surrounded by fellow Kai Lords, a luxury Lone Wolf did not have.

Lame.

I am rubber, you are glue . . .

And you're not going to win the video game debate, because there's nothing to win. I don't play video games, which leaves me at the disadvantage of not caring about the reasoning.

Do you not play gamebooks either? The principles are the same, whether you like it or not. Or what if I said ROLE-PLAYING instead of COMPUTER? Would that make any difference to my argument? No. It's exactly the same. Sometimes it's best to skip the low-level Goblins in favour of playing a high-level adventure with greater dangers and excitement, and a wider scope . . . than dying because a skeleton hit you for (whoooo) a "massive" 6 points of damage.

The real problem here isn't that we disagree (I can live with that). It's that I totally don't understand your reasoning.

Say, reverse that statement . . .

I mean, you have really lost me as to why it's so great to have a nameless Grand Master as a character.

But the whole idea of dropping back down to Initiate, playing repetitive retreads of exising Lone Wolf gamebooks, and generally feeling as though the series is being milked to death are things that I don't understand anyone accepting let alone desiring. Reducing Magnamund's uniqueness to Generic Fantasy World^TM where Good and Evil coexist forever with no resolution, and "super"heroes must be born every few years, and have "interesting" backstories, is something that goes against the very concept of Lone Wolf as a series.

Going the FF route and writing completely unrelated adventures for different characters would allow a greater scope for exploring the world, but could easily become boring and repetitive. (How many Evil Mages have tried to take over Titan, only to be killed at the last minute by a 'hardy adventurer'?) Dever decided not to do it that way, but to devise a system that allowed you to transfer the character between books while growing in power. He wasn't going to drop that in favour of a design he found lacking, was he?

There is no challenge having gotten to that rank; you're just there.

Say it with me: Con-tin-u-i-ty. Naar is getting ever more desperate.

And that just seems like a sad reason to have this character. Part of the fun for me was growing in power as Lone Wolf, and it's just no fun when you start out that powerful already.

Then don't play the NO series. They won't start being PA-ified for a couple of years yet, anyway, by the looks of things. Personally, I was glad to skip the low-level stuff allowing Dever to send the character off to explore unvisited territories. I'd suggest investing in the Lone Wolf RPG if you really want to be able to revisit Durenor, The Wild-lands, and Kalte. I preferred visiting Sheasu, Chai, Lorn, Gazad Helkona (even if it did seem very similar to Kaag :-\ ) and other places. Places even a Kai Master would fear to tread.

This post is now almost as long as my Project Aon Editor 101 post.

[Al]

Outs...
You wrote
"Sometimes it's best to skip the low-level Goblins in favour of playing a high-level adventure with greater dangers and excitement, and a wider scope . . . than dying because a skeleton hit you for (whoooo) a "massive" 6 points of damage."
Now I do not want to interfere with you and DFs epic arguement (ironic, slightly) but I cannot help but point out that a low level character fighting a goblin is more exciting than a high level character fighting a lich... why? because that 6 point spear thrust will kill you. that means the danger level is higher, relatively speaking, between a low level char and the goblin and the maxed out character and the lich. At no point will the lich be able to kill you in one blow, while the goblin can. In this comparison, the goblin becomes much more powerful than the lich. A low level party dealing with a pack of goblins has to use just as much (if not more) inginuity, cunning and guile to defeat them than a high level party dealing with a lich.

It is my opinion that you do not need high level super villians to make the adventure interesting (to many of those is just illogical... think of Voltron, why not wait about a dozen episodes before attacking and use all the giant robots at once instead of one at a time, and this is what I thought when I was seven). A good adventure is not a "monty haul" as I remember it being called, rather it is one with intrigue and somewhat realistic (for the genre) plot lines. Many super villians will simply not exist, there are a limited number of them. That does not mean that lesser evils do not exist. I maintain that a low level encounter with a goblin tribe/bandits/minor undead etc can be just as exciting as encounters with high level villians, but they add a little more because they are that much more believable.

Thats my opinion, I await cutting resoponses;)
Al

[outspaced]

Sometimes, Al, yes. But sometimes, no. Otherwise, why bother developing skills at all? Just stay at 1st level; don't progress, don't get more Hit Points/ENDURANCE/STAMINA/Health/whatever. Then you can have that adrenaline thrill of near-death every week.

The best system for that would be Call of Cthulhu. I've played in games where everyone was hanging on the word of the Keeper, even though we all knew that one hit from most opponents will result in death (or unconsciousness at the very least). Your skills should, of course, increase, which is what makes characters more powerful over time--knowledge rather than strength.

However, if you glance at the rules of Lone Wolf, you'll see that they don't follow that pattern at all. It is aimed at building up COMBAT SKILL and ENDURANCE by means of Disciplines (to complete Lore Circles, for example). And if you don't, Kimah and/or the Chaos-master (and all the rest) will finish you off without breaking a sweat. That's how the game is played, regardless of any 1st-level fetish the player might have!

I've already pointed out my opinions about Naar and his minions as well; it simply makes no sense for

SPOILER: Click to show

Naar to watch Kekataag being slain by Lone Wolf and then subsequently send out Drakkarim and Giaks. It doesn't fit. (And I have no idea what Voltron is.) Naar is on the run. He's getting desperate. He can't afford to sit back and wait. There are only so many "super"villains on Magnamund (unlike Generic Fantasy World^TM where the DM can invent a new one every week), and by Book 28 I can't believe there are that many left. His list of allies grows thin.

Stand-alone adventures like FF can and do work, but LW isn't in that style. I think it's quite simple, really.

I don't think it's more exciting because you might die; I find that a very odd notion indeed. Higher levels should (if you've got a good DM) be more exciting because you have more freedom. Which is essentially my argument for playing a Grand Master in the NO books. And higher level is not the same as monty haul. Indeed, you can play a 1st level monty haul game. (Aside: Do you know how much damage a 1st level Fighter in D&D3.5E can do in one round? It's frightening. I don't recall the figures, but it hinges on taking certain Feats at 1st level and it's mad. I'll post it here if I can find the information/link.)

Additionally, dealing with liches--what kinda DM do you have?! Even trying to deal with a scripted Lich in Baldur's Gate 2 proved impossible; when the DM has free reign to take control of the Lich, YES it can kill you in one hit. How is it that you need ingenuity at 1st level to defeat Goblins, but it's less important against a powerful super-intelligent undead, who likely has traps around his lair? I hate Liches in RPGs. I avoid them.

However, the main reason for my lengthy response was that I got somewhat annoyed at DF's dismissiveness of what I'd written previously. I felt I'd made some good points, only to be told they were *ahem*, and I quote, "Lame." Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone should have their own. I don't think everyone should agree with (for example) me; but to dismiss another's views out of hand seems rather churlish, especially after said opinions have been requested.

I think I replied to your post in the wrong order--oh well.

[Al]

Hi Outspaced
My use of Lich vs Goblin was probably not very well thought out, as you are very correct in the fact that a Lich is probably one of the most powerful monsters going (and I have never played the new D&D system, I found D&D to be too riddled with rules, I really enjoyed the simplicity and role playing of first edition D&D, simple rules, a developed world, all good). I have never played Call of Cthulu either, but it sounds similar to the Paladium system, (esp Rifts) where most weapon systems take you down in one shot, and your survivability depends on skills which go up with experiance and your equipment)

My point was merely that you can have an intersting and exciting series of adventures without them having to be epic world changing adventures, and that low level adventures can be just as fun as high level ones. I do agree with the purpose of advancing through the levels though, as it opens up more opportunity for adventure (Vampires are more powerful than Goblins, and provide more challenge) and to go more places, but the long and the short of it is that starting weak and building up is my opinion part of the fun, and becoming too powerful makes the game boring as your character can just give someone a nasty look and they fall over dead! I just think that too often people want blood/guts/weapons etc and do not want challenge and roleplay (I guess I may be using this arguement to complain about the general downward trajectory in role play video games over the last 10 years or so).

Al

[Dusk Fox]

I tire of this debate because despite all of the discussion, I still don't understand why a nameless Grand Master is better (I can see what outspaced is trying for, but I seriously feel like someone is trying to explain why 2 + 2 = 5), and outspaced doesn't understand why I feel like it would be more fun to start small (and I've run out of ways to reiterate my opinion).

Outs, if you want to get all upset about how I respond to your opinions, fine. I wasn't the one dithering about contrived plots based on a random example for a plot. Honestly, who cares if it's the same plot as Flight from the Dark? The point wasn't that the plot was good, but rather that there are ways to make such a story interesting, even if I don't want to take the time to do it myself. Seeing as I'm not Joe Dever, I don't think that it's particularly important for me to convince you that my adventure idea is new and original so long as you follow my reasoning that there are untapped story resources in Magnamund for a low-level Kai, and given a bit of thought, logical and plausible justification can be given for playing one. That's all. Disagree if you like; at this point, I don't care.

You're entitled to your opinions, I'm entitled to mine. I just don't follow your logic on a lot of subjects (such as why giving a character a name turns them into a superhero--we'll have to revisit that some day), and you apparently don't like low-level adventures. That's cool, do as you like, it's all rhetoric anyway.

And Black Cat--who says I don't use my imagination? With Joe's necessarily minimalist style, my imagination is what's filling in the blanks and keeping the action coherent and interesting in my mind. I just have a hard time feeling connected to a character when I know that all of his personality details (all the way down to his name) are just in my head, and will never be referenced in the story. I'd rather have the story agree on some small details so my imagination can fill in the rest.

[artichu]

I wanna jump in on the "use your imagination" thing, because I think it's a particularly stupid argument that I hear way too often.

I can use my imagination *any time I want*. If I want to make up a vague fantasy story in my head, I can do it *myself*.

The point of paying money for a book, or going out and taking the time to read a book, is so that *I* don't have to use *my* imagination to create every detail of an interesting story. It's so that the author can *give* me enough images and ideas from the story so that I can think up something I wouldn't have thought of on my own.

How would you feel if the Lone Wolf books consisted of a bunch of one-line paragraphs saying "Lone Wolf is on a journey. To take a safer route, go to 146. To take a more dangerous route, go to 22". "Lone Wolf must now combat Enemy #33. Enemy #33: 11 CS, 30 EP. If you defeat Enemy #33, go to 11." "Lone Wolf now gets Item #2. If Lone Wolf now has Item #2 and Item #3, go to 44, otherwise, go to 6."

Wouldn't you get pissed off if you had something like that and then heard me telling you, "Just use your *imagination*, dude! Picture in your mind what kind of adventure you want Lone Wolf to be having! Come up with your *own* backstory and description for Monster #33! Think about what Items #2 and #3 might be and invent your own cool theory for how they might be used together to avoid Trap #6, whatever Trap #6 is!"

You'd be really pissed off. When it comes to things like plot, and puzzles, and setting description, no one seems to agree that "less is more" -- would you like it if Joe Dever had never published a map of Magnamund, or illustrations of what Kraan look like, or created an actual Giak language, because having those details leaves "less to the imagination" and it would be "more fun" to make up those background details yourself?

I mean, you're still using your imagination if the author gives you details -- you're just using your imagination *on* something.

The only reason that things like the history of the Darklords are filled in and Lone Wolf's personal history aren't is because in a gamebook plot and visceral descriptions of events are *more important* than characterization, is all. In another kind of writing -- say, a romance novel -- we'd all accept that the world the story took place in was only vaguely described but demand that the protagonist have a clear and recognizable voice.

That said, *I* like having *some*thing to base my thoughts about the protagonist around. I don't want to pretend it's just me having magically been zapped into a fantasy world, or that my character is just a generic fantasy hero whose sole goal in life is to Fight Monsters, or -- worst of all -- to make up some ridiculously intricate backstory for my character that has *nothing to do* with what my character is doing onstage because in the book all he ever does is Fight Monsters. (This is my beef with the Fighting Fantasy books.)

Lone Wolf at least gives you something to pin things around. You don't have to feel constricted into playing a character you don't like, but you can get some idea of him being a person beyond being a Hero -- the fact that he *had* a brother who died when he was young, the fact that he's best friends with Banedon, the fact that sometimes his lust for vengeance fades and leaves him with a great weariness -- you can take that and make what you want of it in your mind (I'm sure all of us have a different idea of what kind of a guy Lone Wolf was) but it's still *something*.

The New Order Blank Name guy just gives you nothing at all. It's quite frustrating for that reason -- how'd you like it if, instead of giving you villains with a history, when the game encountered a major bad guy it told you to generate a name and stats for him and "imagine where he might have came from, what he might look like, and why he might be raising an army to conquer Magnamund"? Would you really like that?

If you would, well, fine. Writing books for you would be a simplistic task that a computer could do. For the rest of us, we'd prefer that talented authors who enjoy spinning detailed stories invest most of their energy on us, who like and appreciate being given a glimpse into the author's vision instead of being asked to do all the work for him.

[Dusk Fox]

Well said, Artichu. I agree with most of what you've said, and feel the same way about the NO guy. I wish I'd have thought to put it that way.