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Post by outspaced on Aug 30, 2006 12:46:44 GMT
Ok ok, Quinefer is nice young woman, who like to bath naked with audience. Ah, OK! I understand now. That doesn't necessarily refer to most of us!
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Post by HuntingWolf on Sept 8, 2006 17:46:09 GMT
Ok, I've been wonderimg this for a few years now... I wanna know why everyone thinks Qinefer is such an annoying character? Is it because she intrudes upon the world of Magnamund? Big freakin' deal! So John got her from another story! Who gives a crap. I for one like her. She's really cool in my book. I think it was a neat addition to add her to the Lone Wolf story. Maybe some of you are just racist. =oX
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Post by outspaced on Sept 8, 2006 21:21:48 GMT
Because she is a Mary Sue, and the Legends are merely Lone Wolf fanfiction. I don't even need to express contempt for the ridiculous introduction of a dark-skinned female character (from Cloeasia, the population of which, as The Skull of Agarash clearly shows, is not dark-skinned) as an expression of the author's "right-on" views on "modernist" fantasy. "Oh, how terribly racist that a feudal country near the Arctic regions of Magnamund is populated by dreadful Caucasian-types--I must fudge the introduction of someone with dark skin to be politically correct." I imagine Barnett is one of those dreadful critics of Tolkien. "All white characters, no 'strong' female characters . . ." *yaaaaawn*
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Post by insomniac on Sept 8, 2006 21:59:58 GMT
Imperialist!
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Post by outspaced on Sept 9, 2006 12:30:04 GMT
No, realist. Barnett spends pages showing how difficult life in Sommerlund is for the serfs, ekeing out their existence from the harsh, unforgiving land. And then someone waltzes into the country, having no Lord ("Every Sommlending must have a lord"--King Kian (The Saga of Sommerlund section of The Magnamund Companion), then rises directly to the top, despite not being from that country. A Sommlending without a lord would most likely be the lowest caste, considered untouchable; most likely they would be bandits, robbers, that sort of thing. Yes, that can happen now; but to take modern thinking and impress that upon a quasi-Medieval, pseudo-European fantasy world seems ridiculous, particularly after showing how much darkness there is in Sommerlund at the time. A certain amount of xenophobia would be both understandable and, more importantly, realistic in view of the circumstances--being invaded by the hordes of Darklord Zagarna. And yet, no one in Sommerlund comments on any of these things--because Q's beautiful, and wonderful, and clever, and brave, and witty, and charming, and has had a tough life but has learned to cope with it, and is in reality Mary feckin' Sue. Paido and Samu both fit logically into the stories being told. Q and Alyss don't. That said, this is purely my own personal opinion, and others are advised most strongly to form their own opinions on the Legends series. Just don't call me a racist for not liking annoying characters--that really sets me off!
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Post by insomniac on Sept 9, 2006 14:45:50 GMT
I agree with you, outspaced. I was just pulling your leg, hence the " ." I also don't like it when people make works of fiction set in medieval/ancient worlds conform to modern ideas of political correctness. I wouldn't have recommended S.M. Stirling in another thread if I thought that!
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Post by adunaphel on Sept 9, 2006 15:22:53 GMT
I especially liked the part where she killed the helghast by winging a giak sword at its head. It takes a Kai an entire chapter to kill a helghast using a magical weapon, but Qinifer in her mighty nakedness can drop one in two seconds flat with a run-o-the-mill giak blade.
I also enjoyed the part where she is knighted for simply showing up in Holmgard.
And...her name is Qinifer. Just the NAME makes you want to wring her neck.
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Post by Zipp on Sept 9, 2006 22:24:17 GMT
For my part, I'm just tired of hearing about how everyone hates Qunifer. I haven't even gotten to her in the Legends yet. But at least once a week, someone says how terrible she is.
But honestly, at this point, she would have to be demonically torturous to be as bad as most everyone has made her out to be. And I doubt she's that bad. I'll rephrase this... it is not possible to be as bad as she has been made out to be.
So, let's have someone praise her virtues (beside her nakedness) and even things out.
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Post by outspaced on Sept 10, 2006 12:27:30 GMT
Zipp, you may be surprised, but I do understand your comments and to an extent I agree with you. It's just very difficult to come to a conclusion right now. Irritatingly, the ebooks are no longer for sale from the author (thanks to a problem with an Ebayer selling multiple copies of the ebooks), so it's very difficult to get hold of the Legends these days. If you haven't reached her introduction yet, I guess you have only read Eclipse of the Kai, which does contain some very interesting background material, even if the parts about Vonotar seemed a little laboured and overlong to me, and Alyss is quite irritating, though not anywhere near as irritating as she will become . . . People should be allowed to come to their own conclusions and reach their own opinions. I've always been careful to limit my--is contempt too strong a word for a fictional character?--for her to the character itself, rather than aim it at people who like the character. The idea that people who don't like her are racist is what annoyed me. Perhaps you meant well, HW, but that's really a strong insult, so I had to respond with my usual vitriol for the annoying, anachronistic, antagonistic, and, with this sentence, alliterative wench. All that said, I can't think of any of her virtues. Sorry. @ insomniac: I was fairly sure you weren't being wholly serious (the smiley gave it away!), but I wanted to make sure anyone else who read through this thread would understand completely what I meant. @ Adunaphel: Exactly. Exactly, exactly, exactly. King Ulnar: "Here, be knighted for being alive and a foreigner, while native Sommlending can get stuffed and die. Now, who shall I send on the long journey into Durenor? Well, it's a tough decision,* but I think I'll send the Kai Lord.**" * HOW is it a tough decision?!? HOW??**'Cos, y'know, only a Kai Lord can use the Sommerswerd[/b]. And don't forget Lone Wolf almost got minced by one Gourgaz, but the Mighty Q can take out two. Gah!
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Post by adunaphel on Sept 10, 2006 19:48:25 GMT
The two Gourgaz thing I can let slide, since she was fully armored, mounted, and cheated by shooting one in the face with an arrow.
Besides, Lone Wolf grabbed three Gourgaz by the skruffs of their necks and drowned them in a cauldron of beef broth. Qinny's got nothing on that.
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Post by Rusty Radiator on Apr 13, 2008 5:19:12 GMT
Sorry to keep practicing threadnomancy but I have to agree that the characters of Qinefer & Alyss really spoilt the Legends for me too. Surely there were enough characters already in the books that could have been fleshed out. Yes I agree that there were not many black or female characters in the originals, & that is a problem in many fantasy fictions, largely because the fans are predominantly white males, but still-why not just focus on the few black/female characters Dever did create rather than create these 'Mary Sue's. By the way Outspaced I love that term; it describes something I've often noticed & been annoyed by but never had a word for, until now. Here is that link again:- Though I've gotta admit that if they're Mary Sue's, they are a reaction to JD's 'canon-Sue' of LW. I mean...1 guy taking out Gourgaz, Helghasts, Vonotar, Barraka &2 Darklords when he isn't even a Master.....
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Post by beowuuf on Apr 13, 2008 8:07:48 GMT
To defend the legends (Since Simey hasn't jumped in) I've re-read them recently (or the starting ones) and it's funny how there were things I let slide because I thought it was JD's ideas, and then having my enjoyment tinted by knowing what is JG/PB's stuff as opposed to JD's
I agree, the amount of new female characters is staggering, book 6 (based on book 4) is the 'worst'. That said, there is not an abundance of female characters to flesh out. At all. The only choices would have been Imelda appearing at the start and somehow entangling herself in Lone Wolf's life. But that would have been every bit as artificial as JG just creating a new warrior to fight alongside LW. There is Viveka, if you expanded her role and characters. Wait, he did that, and did that well. Then there's... well, that's it really.
The concept of Alyss you can almost see come from the gamebooks. If you, as lone wolf, play through the books all the way through (even excluding combats) you will statistically speaking always die. There will always be a poor choice you make or a random number that doesn't turn out. Well, i nthe first 12 books anyway. Combat aside I can't recall the GM series killing you liek that. Aaaanyway....In order to win, you need you, as you, with your player knowledge of future events and best path, to guide Lone Wolf. So therefore, as a writer trying to flesh out the story, that hook (a more powerful being guiding in the background) is actually logical. It is also logical, if the agenda is to have more empowered females and to not be so on the nose, to tweak the guide to being to female rather than male. Infact, that would subconsciously grab any female readers into reading the gamebooks that otherwise excluded them if they secretly though they were alice like guiding the stupid teenage boy Lone Wolf away from petting Doomwolves and macho-ly killing Giaks
Anyway, back in the day I accepted Alyss as I thought she was a JD character. What rankled me was the concept - that LW had some form of controller, he didn't do it all by himself (after all, he was the hero dammit!). Back in the day I didn't actually find her annoyign just that she'd been introducded - like I say though, it's from a logical place. I accepted her and liked her as a character. In new light, I did find her annoyign for being too know it all, forgetting that later in the books (perhaps where it is a little too late before readers dislike her) she gets slapped down for being the way she is, and it's sort of explained, and basically you do have Banedon and the rest being irritated by her to point out 'you know, this would be irritating'. LD obviously liked the character enough to put her into the GM books. I liked the charatcer once I gave in and accepted Lone Wolf wasn't the hero who could do everything by himself to start with (ie, he was a real person with flaws who would grow up to be the hero he is)
Anyway, on to Qinefer. Spelling aside (there needs to be a U dammit!) let's think for a moment. For the overarcing books to be interesting, especially with one where the hero starts out a young lad, and especially ones where you want to expand upon an existing world and seen events, you want a few things. You need a cast of characters - Lone Wolf, due to the nature of the gamebook format, has the one hero. Playing off of himself is boring, so having companions is a good idea. Banedon is there, and a possibility, but you can't really keep having him Lone Wolf's constant companion and allow Banedon to grow - or else the later sections of the book don't make sense, when LW and Banedon encounter each other after a long time. Also, you really want people who will stay behind in the early boosk to give a flavour of what's happenign in Holmgard while you swan off for 40 days in the gamebooks. You could invent another boy LW finds on the road with aspirations or obligations in the knighthood or in soldiering. Of course, unless you kill him off then that male companion shoudl really become Lone Wolf's best friend later in life, and really that would tread on the toes of Banedon's role.
If you are trying to empower females then really a female warrior is the way to go. And as you know, in the medival times depicted in Magnamund, you usually wouldn't get females who could just walk up and get knightly or soldierly positions. So obviously, your female needs to be a) a bloody good natural fighter, and b) striking enough that Ulnar, cynical ruler as he is, will put your female character in anythign like a good position to see the holmgard seige firsthand - I think Ulnar says she would make a good figurehead. A normal blond girl just woulnd't ring as true as an unusual 'exotic' warrior woman. Yes, why does she have dark skin - I think it gets passingly references somewhere why, but I don't recall it sounding a good reason. Hey ho!
So, Qinefer can is too good a warriro to start with. Well, firtsly, she has to be. If you are tryign to create a strong female, remember the climate only 15 years ago. In mainstream TV, there were no female action heroes. Film action heroes - two. Ripley - who had to be the tough yet understanted and helpless female i nthe first Alien film, and not really earn her warrior stripes until half way through the second. And Sarah Conner - who had to be the helpless but strong underneath female until the very end of the first film, to be able to . I'm realising both of those were James cameron films (since Ripley isn't action start in Alien, just smart), so it's not like it was mainstream just one diretor/writer's choice to empower females. Tell me if I missed any other ones! Sadly, fantasy is a man's world and sci-fi only rarely could a strong female take centre stage female action characters
So you can forgive JG if he doesn't want to take the usual route, and have a strong but helpless female character tag along with Lone Wolf until finally she is caught alone, backed into a corner, and only then discovers how kick ass she is. Instead he does it right from the start, with Qinefer caught alone and helpless and discovering how kick-ass she is, so as to be able to infat be taken seriously enough to go a parallel path from Lone Wolf at the very start of the story, where she is needed to show the situation in holmgard while he gets the Sommerswerd. And sadly, she is a female character, so she does indeed have to do more than Lone Wolf (who is already the default hero) to prove she is an equal character worthy of some time. Let's face it, Banedon is a bit wet but we'll except he'll eventually grow into his responsibilities plus he's a mage so a specialist - he can go back to Toran and be in the thick of the action. If we had a weak female character, it really would seem stupid she gets any position in the front lines of Holmgard.
Is it annoying that JG almost breaks one of the conceits of the gamebooks, with Lone Wolf as the lone saviour. Yes. By introducing such a strong figure, one who 'is a latent kai too' then that is clearly a big mis-step. With you there. Then again, I guess JG had to feed that in as a reason why she would hang around Lone Wolf - she is a potential that LW will wish to keep around, well.
Anyway, this is all getting far too long. I think the point is people have focused and over-focused too much on some of this stuff. The legends series is flawed, but the flaws to me are different to the 'we hate Qinefer/Alyss' debate I think. There is no problem with introducing strong female characters into the world, sicne there are none and it makes it flat. And really, for the age range at the start of the book, you need some self aware contemporary female characters to comment on and drive the emotional sides, since the male characters will be emotionally less mature (it's just a fact!) and more importantly the male characters are in it for the long haul, and so need to have the space to be stupid and young so they can grow into heroes. The flaw is that I don't think the female characters are flawed enough themselves - or their flaws only manefest much later when many people have obviously stopped caring about them as characters. Similarly, too many of the male protagonists appear stupid compared to their female counterparts. I'm thinking of the sacrifice of raunon in particular - Lone Wolf is surrounded by very confident intelligent women (includeing the added Petra), whereas D'Val is a bit thick really, solid though he is.
For strong female fighters who can kill anything, I think that overlooks the flaw that JG has anyone killing way too easily. Why do people whine about Qinefer and the Gourgaz or the Helghast scaring (not killing - she just scares him away, and since the Helghast is pretending to be and cts like a child, I believe form is affecting thought there) when Lone Wolf butchers his way through a whole army to get to Holmgard in Legends!
Plus I don't like the conflicting messages (god discussions, etc) that sometimes character pontificate on considering the world. The world of magnamund has a very set ethos - epic tales, mighty heroes and villains, and black and white good and evil. I don't mind introducing shades of grey to make it interesting, nor looking into the morality of absolutes. But JG obviously had a few agendas in re-writing typical fantasy themes, and the established world of magnamund was not the place to do it I feel. Btetre to have started with a blank canvas on his own.
It would be the difference, really,between Ron Moore's new version of BSG where he is free to make the world be very gender free in it's roles, and very shades of grey (and fantastic) and Ron Moore tryign to participate in the original show and introduce those themes to that TV series where they woulnd't fit.
Right, too much typing! Darn you threadnomancy, darn you! To me,
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Post by beowuuf on Apr 13, 2008 8:14:28 GMT
Sadly, despite the verbage above, I don't think I can defend against the mary sue description on the wiki. Then again, perhaps the canon-sue LW is a correct call, and explains the many weird fights.
JD: Haha! Lone Wolf rules all! Us: Umm, you just stuck a Helghast in there - are you mad? JD: Haha! Us: No, but seriously, my LW- JD: Haha! Lone wolf rules! Us: - yes, quite, but my rolled character is about to be the unwilling receipient of a burning hot helfire staff up the- JD: Lone wolf rules all! Us: Right...I'll just erase the 'if' and write 'when you win' in crayon and turn to the section without picking numbers, shall I?
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Post by Rusty Radiator on Apr 14, 2008 23:10:23 GMT
Wow Beowuuf, looks like my Threadnomancy did you a favour; you clearly had a lot of thoughts to share! Just to clarify my position, I didn't mind the creation of new female characters it's just that there's only 1 LoneWolf [football chant] &between having no less than three(!) saviours of humanity (the elevation of Banedon to super-magician also annoyed me), combined with the fact that LW could barely tie his own shoe laces w/o Alyss or someone helping him, made it hard to reconcile the stories with the gamebooks, which was surely the point. I was not expecting great literature, or a sociological essay, I was interested in seeing LW & co fleshed out & made more conceivable. How does a young lad progress & develop to an Avatar-like status? That's all.
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Post by Omega M. on Apr 25, 2008 20:57:11 GMT
To add more details about what NS said, the NO series was halted at book 28. There was supposed to be 4 more books in the series, which would had answered your questions, but the publisher abandonned them. So we can't really answer your 2 questions regarding the ending of the series. As for what happened in books 26, 27 & 28 regarding Lone Wolf, it is business as usual: he sends you on missions while he stays at the Monastery, throwing parties with Banedon and Gwynian while making beer drinking contest. Does the last book bring the series to a definitive end? For example, does it end with Naar being blocked from ever taking over Magnamund again?
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