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Post by ramthelinefeed on Jul 18, 2004 11:17:41 GMT
Hmmm, I don't really buy that.
When I was a 10 year old child playing "Flight from the Dark" and "Fire on the Water", I hadn't a clue what the difference between a short sword, a sword and a broadsword were! I'd certainly no clue that some weapons were "two-handed"
The 10 different weapons you could have just seemed to me to be to provide an interesting variety, and also there was the gameplay aspect that you could only get a weaponskill in one of them (picked by a random number), so there was the fun of trying to find your ideal weapon as you played through the book. (Flight from the Dark has a much less linear gameplay flow that many latter books - there were dozens of different routes through the forest to Holmgard, and you could pick up all sorts of weapns along the way depending which route you chose)
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Post by Vassagonian on Jul 25, 2004 8:13:01 GMT
The only time I always use "two" weapons is in the Grey Star books - I find I need every last combat skill point I can get, so I take the jewelled dagger at the start, and use it with my wizard's staff for an extra +1CS. ahh...come on..Gandalf can strike an enemy/many enemies with both wizard's staff and a sword(if you ever played Return Of The King) so as Legolas.Remember that he's older(700 or 7000 years old?Whatever!), much more older than that of Grey Star. I usually use one weapon at time,unless I face a formidable foe.That instant, I use 2 weaponlike special items-guest what?Helshezag and Sommerswerd! ;D Well,there's no explicit rules,as we can now both of them are single handed weapon so,why bother?Forget the shield! Imagine what can I do to Gnaag when I wield both Dagger of Vashna and Helshezag...... NB:of course,that is my intepretation.....
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Post by BenKenobi on Jul 26, 2004 19:19:37 GMT
Interesting point, although I can't picture wielding the staff effectively in combat with only one hand any more than I could picture Darth Maul wielding his double-bladed lightsabre with one hand. Sure, it fires bolts from a distance, but in close combat I'm sure you'd need both hands to "hit" somebody with it. I like the idea though! Gandalf, in the Lord of the Rings, always fights with a staff and a sword at the same time I think that if you have 2 arms and 2 weapons, you can use both of them in combat... In Kai Lord serie (LW 1-5) you can master only one weapon, so you can take advantage only from using 1 weapon + the Shield... if it is not a 2-arms needed weapon. In Magnakai serie (LW 6-12) you can use 2 weapons in combat... but if you have 2 weapons, you don't have the bow, that provides very useful in many circumstances. If you use only a weapon, you can rely on the bow. Since the bonus of the shield is +2, using it instead of a second weapon you can master make you lose only 1 point, but keeping the advantage of the bow. This makes sense to me.
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Post by Relenoir on Jul 28, 2004 2:30:05 GMT
Gandalf, in the Lord of the Rings, always fights with a staff and a sword at the same time I think that if you have 2 arms and 2 weapons, you can use both of them in combat... In Kai Lord serie (LW 1-5) you can master only one weapon, so you can take advantage only from using 1 weapon + the Shield... if it is not a 2-arms needed weapon. In Magnakai serie (LW 6-12) you can use 2 weapons in combat... but if you have 2 weapons, you don't have the bow, that provides very useful in many circumstances. If you use only a weapon, you can rely on the bow. Since the bonus of the shield is +2, using it instead of a second weapon you can master make you lose only 1 point, but keeping the advantage of the bow. This makes sense to me. Wow! Great interpretation. That actually made a lot of sense, but I still see logic against it. In book 12 and the GM series, you have a Korlinium Scabbard that will hold your Sommerswerd, so you could carry another weapon besides. Also, there are certainly times where LW must shoulder his bow; I can't imagine scaling walls with the SS in one hand and the Silver Oak Bow in the other, so weapons obviously get put somewhere temporarily when need be. I still feel that it was meant to be a single-weapon system, but am beginning to convert. . . an extra +5 against the Deathlord would sure be useful! ;D Re: Gandalf, isn't he usually casting magic with the staff while he's wielding the sword with the other? He is a bit of an exceptional individual, but then again, I suppose Lone Wolf is as well. I guess I'm making absolutely no point in this follow-up!
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Post by Ghost Bear on Jul 28, 2004 6:20:24 GMT
Pointlessness is fun. Never dismiss it.
See that white space up there ^? Pointless.
Um, anyway. I like the idea of dual weapons, and I think that in my next playthrough of the books (I play them all through again each time a new book is released), I think I'll adopt the rule for my own use.
As to the weapons thing. I think you can certainly get bogged down in the details. For instance, you could quite reasonably (according to the rules) take along:
2 Quarterstaves (Weapons)
The Sommerswerd Silver Bow of Duadon Helshezag Bronin Warhammer Dagger of Vashna 6 Jewelled Maces
Overweighted? What? You'd need a packhorse to carry all that junk around.
But I do like the idea of an extra CS boost. Question though. When you reach the rank of Scion-Kai, you get a +1 boost to your Weaponmastery bonus. You'd count this for each of your weapons, right? (giving +8 total, or + 17 if you carried both the Sommerswerd and the Bronin Warhammer).
-GB
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Post by BenKenobi on Jul 30, 2004 18:31:11 GMT
Ok, you got it To counterbalance the advantage of using 2 weapons, I prefer to use a realistic equipment system. Something like: 1) Your 2 weapons are the 2 special items that you use as weapons; so you won't have a sword and a bow beside the Sommerswerd and the Silver Bow 2) You can carry the Dagger of Vashna, or the Bronin Warhammer, because it be carried at the belt, but you can't carry the other weapons ( 6 jewelled maces !!! ) This is a limitation to my equipment, but this is the (little) price I pay for the 2-weapons bonus. Nice idea for a replay, without getting against the rules of the books, but only using good sense to make them more realistic. I think that the Scion-Kay bonus would be for both the weapons... without all these bonuses, how do you beat enemies like Kimah or the Chaosmaster ?!?
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Post by Sol on Dec 23, 2004 14:23:03 GMT
I have always used the one weapon rule myself, but after getting killed by Kimah, the Chaos-Master, the Villains and Ixiataaga about a thousand times, I am desperate! I agree with this! Players will do anything to justify a little extra CS to help against these Big Baddies: 1) Dual Weapons 2) WeaponSkill Stacking (I have done this) 3) stowing the +4 Alether in SafeKeeping 4) All 3!
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Post by StoneCold on Dec 24, 2004 5:26:24 GMT
From the "Improved Disciplines" bit in The Darke Crusade: Grand Weaponmastery Sun Knights with this Discipline are able to wield two-handed weapons (i.e. Broadsword, Quarterstaff, Spear) with full effect, using only one hand. So perhaps you can use TWO staffs at the same time??? I take this to simply mean that 1. If you were injured or any other case told you can only use one arm, you'd still be able to wield the Broadsword or Quarterstaff 2. You can now use a shield, and enjoy the bonuses. Commonsense suggests that you shouldn't very well add all the CS bonuses by carrying say, the Quarterstaff and a shield, but now thanks to Weaponmastery, you can. Actually, just because you could normally carry a weapon in each hand doesn't mean you can wield them both simultaneously in an effective manner. Those of you who may have done any sort of martial arts will attest to that. There's a lot of coordination involved when you need to will each arm to do different things. So I strongly believe that you should not be able to happily add all bonuses by wielding two weapons at the same time.
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Post by PurpleTurtle on Dec 26, 2004 2:15:39 GMT
Actually, just because you could normally carry a weapon in each hand doesn't mean you can wield them both simultaneously in an effective manner. Those of you who may have done any sort of martial arts will attest to that. There's a lot of coordination involved when you need to will each arm to do different things. So I strongly believe that you should not be able to happily add all bonuses by wielding two weapons at the same time. Hear hear. Typically when using two weapons, the off-hand one is used mostly for defense and the main hand one is used mostly for attack. It doesn't mean you can attack twice as much and still have some kind of reasonable defense. I still gripe about some RPG rules where having a weapon in the off-hand gives you extra attacks... absolute bull dreamed up by people who have never held a weapon in their lives.
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Post by Sol on Dec 29, 2004 14:23:03 GMT
Hear hear. Typically when using two weapons, the off-hand one is used mostly for defense and the main hand one is used mostly for attack. It doesn't mean you can attack twice as much and still have some kind of reasonable defense. I still gripe about some RPG rules where having a weapon in the off-hand gives you extra attacks... absolute bull dreamed up by people who have never held a weapon in their lives. This is an excellent point - also one that non-martial artists such as myself might not have guessed. Even so, the extra weapon (even if it used only to parry incoming attacks) would be good for some kind of CS bonus... else why would anyone ever fight this way? The "extra attacks" thing - I see this in most RPGs and have done this in my own games. Maybe I had better rethink! Warhammer 40K does this also. If you are wearing the Shield on your back (say while you are holding a double-handed weapon) maybe that gives you the CS bonus still (Ninja-Turtle style). I mean, that's one big shield! Lots of people disagree with Dual Weapons - but I wonder... if you disallowed it, then disallowed Discipline-Stacking, then disallowed storing items in the Monastery before Book 8, and also disallowed more than one dose of Alether per combat, what would your CS be in Book 11? I would say the most it could be might be 19 +5 for LoreCircle Bonuses, + 2 for the Silver Helm, +12 for the Sun-Sword, and +2 for the Shield. I guess you could also add 6 more for Psi-Surge and 2 for Alether. That's a 48 CS. It could be as low as 39 assuming you completed all the prior books. The REAL lowest CS would be 10+8 = 18 if you were starting with Book 11, and didn't choose WeaponMastery or Psi-Surge. In this case, the Chaos-Master might have a 47 CS (you are at +1, you are at -8 if you had the worst CS). This fight is probably winnable if you have the max CS, although I would say it would be very hard. With the lowest CS, I say kiss it goodbye. Good question: if you have the Sommerswerd AND the Ironheart broadsword, can you choose which to use? (Can you even get the Ironheart broadsword if you own the Sommerswerd?) --- Now against the Villians of Sommerlund, the Ironheart Broadsword (if you had it) is gone by now. Your CS at the *very* worst could be as low as 10 - this would place you at a -28 disadvantage. The best you could possibly do (no stacking, no dual-weapon, no +4 Alether, not allowed to have more than 1 dose of Alether at a time) would be, again, 48 CS. This would place you at a +10 advantage, but you would need every possible point in the game in order to do this. Vonotar would be next. Your Psi-Surge is no good on him, so even though his CS is 30, the very best you could do (under the strict interpretation of the rules) would be +12. Again, great, but you would need every point in the game to do this. I will not go over the worst-case CS for Lone Wolf since it would make you cry and I don't like to see that stuff. I was starting out to make an emotional case for allowing Dual-Weapons, but I am not sure if I have. Having a +10 against the Villians and a +12 against Vonotar actually looks pretty good. Admittedly, against the Chaos-Master, you only have a +1, but that is still a decent match-up. Maybe it helps if I mention that only ten percent of legally-rolled Kai have a CS of 19. Thoughts? With the extra 4 points that Dual Weapons could allow, weak characters do get more of a chance against the Chaos Master (still no luck for the guy starting in Book 11 though). Hay-oooo!
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Post by Sol on Dec 29, 2004 15:32:03 GMT
As to the weapons thing. I think you can certainly get bogged down in the details. For instance, you could quite reasonably (according to the rules) take along: 2 Quarterstaves (Weapons) The Sommerswerd Silver Bow of Duadon Helshezag Bronin Warhammer Dagger of Vashna 6 Jewelled Maces Overweighted? What? You'd need a packhorse to carry all that junk around. -GB You know, I used to always take 6 Jewelled Maces from the Yas (why not? The 12 Special-Item limit is not in effect in Book 5) but then again, when I read through Book 5 this last time, it seems to say that you can only take -1- mace. Do you guys go by this, or assume that it is fine to take 6 since there are obviously 6 in the chest?
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Post by BenKenobi on Jan 1, 2005 20:14:40 GMT
Why did the author put 6 maces in that chest ?? You can NEVER thing of carrying 6 jewelled maces around the way... A couple of things on previous old posts... 1. SunKnights can use two-handed weapons with one hand. This means that the number of hands you use (one or two) DO influence the gameplay... There are very few times, in the later books, when you are in extremely hard situations and you have to fight using only one arm; in the previous book n.13, for instance, if you choose to go under the montains rather than into the jungle, you have to do a combat using only one hand... and this reduces your CS if using a staff/broadsword/spear. Can it be that this rule applies only on this ? I don't remember situations as the one of the book 13, in the later books... (do you remember ?) so this can be a proof that the numer of hands used in combat DO influence the gameplay... jointly with the specifications of how do you carry your items, at the beginning of all the Kai-Magnakai books. Alas, you can't use Shield in Grand Master series because it isn't in the Special Items list at the beginning of the book... this means that you can't carry it from previous adventures 2. Ah, PurpleTurtle, you can't have the Sommerswerd AND the Ironheart broadsword... if you have the Sommerswerd, you immediately go on the roof without getting the damned good broadwsord, and you get the "hard" combat against Chaosmaster.
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Post by Sol on Jan 5, 2005 3:33:43 GMT
Kenobi, you are quite correct! I saw this and thought of your post.
A funny tidbit:
The Action Chart for the New Order adventures features an illustration of a shield. Funny in a way since you are never allowed to get one.
"Illustration, lower-right: an example of equipment that you CAN'T put on this action chart. Nyah Nyah"
Unless you go with the school of thought that all those items Lone Wolf had to "throw away" at the start of Book 13 were actually intended as the beginning of the Kai Armoury for the New Order.
(Parody follows)
Swift Fox: Cool, I got a Shield! Quiet Rain: I got a Bronin Vest! <Foolish> <Mule>: I got a Port Bax Ticket!
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Post by Zipp on Jan 6, 2005 4:14:25 GMT
For me, dual weapons was just too complicated to consider without being given a defenite set of rules for it. Since Joe didn't give one, I never even considered it.
I think it's one of those things that came about when people realized the Chaos Master was obviously supposed to kill Lone Wolf and end the series. Who said Joe favored happy endings?
On a bit of a side note, I can understand Joe's wanting to make the Chaos Master so hard... I mean, from a character stand point (and we know Joe is all about character), he IS a demi god of sorts, and the possiblity of Lone Wolf defeating him in melee combat is slim. Personally, I think Joe could've saved the character bit and made the battle more enjoyable by turning it into a story battle (you know, where you win by making the correct set of choices). This still would've been hard, but would've been more interesting and actually more believeable, since I always wondered what exactly transpired to allow Lone Wolf to beat that guy.
LONE WOLF: Go to hell you foul beast! CHAOS MASTER: Ah! Swearing! The one thing my virgin body can't take.
Because he's obviously a virgin.
Ok... I've gotten a bit off track... getting back on track, this still doesn't explain why the Villains of Sommerlund are so damn hard... maybe cause they gang up on you... but c'mon you just defeated a CHAOS MASTER.
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Post by Sol on Jan 6, 2005 5:03:02 GMT
Because he's obviously a virgin. Really? It's not so obvious to me - how can you tell? Or are there just not enough companionship options when you are five stories high?
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