|
Post by kamqute on Dec 16, 2005 1:37:10 GMT
I read in the Rules Handbook that you do not reroll EP and CS for the Grand Master adventures, but do you increase your scores to reflect the new numbers you add on to your random numbers? In other words, does your CS increase by 15 and your EP by 10?
EDIT:
-If the answer is no, does everyone think that it would be fair to relinquish all of my special items in favor of gaining this benefit?
A related question is whether you still have Lore-Circle boni even if you have not completed the Magnakai series. If not, I append to the above sacrifice that of Lore-Circles boni.
(I have this paranoid fear of people taking my equipment and I'd much rather have lower, more stable, stats; I am also of the less-is-more-badass mentality)
|
|
|
Post by Black Cat on Dec 16, 2005 5:25:43 GMT
I read in the Rules Handbook that you do not reroll EP and CS for the Grand Master adventures, but do you increase your scores to reflect the new numbers you add on to your random numbers? In other words, does your CS increase by 15 and your EP by 10? What the rule handbook says is no, you continue with all you CS and EP scores (which includes Lorecircle bonuses). However, what they also say is that when you master a Grand Discipline that gives you a bonus, you must replace the Magnakai bonus by the GM one. I.E.: If you pick the Grand Weaponmastery, you replace the +3CS that the Magnakai discipline of Weaponmastery was giving you by the +5CS the GM equivalent gives you. You don't add the 3 and the 5 together. But I think that I made the demonstration long ago that, in the end, this will give a disadvantage to a player that had played the whole series compared to a rookie that starts with book 13. I copy/paste my explanantion from that other post that is buried deep in the forums. As you can see, my idea is to add only the 15 CS that you are suggesting at the beginning of book 13. After that, you can replace the Magnakai Discipline bonuses by the GM ones without being disadvantaged. However, for the +10 E, I don't think it is necessary since you have 11 E coming from the Lorecircles. I.E.: Player that has played all the books: 15 + 9 (random number picked) + 11 (Lorecircles) = 35 Player that starts with book 13: 25 + 9 (random number picked) + 0 (no Lorecircles) = 34
|
|
|
Post by kamqute on Dec 16, 2005 5:56:03 GMT
A couple things about that to consider when balancing these things: -If you completed the previous books, you get to carry over your backpack items, money, memories+experience, nonmechanical benefits of lore-circle completion Magnakai disciplines for nonmechanical purposes (unless you count as having the Magnakai version as soon as you get the Grand Master version?) -Also if you completed the previous books, you get to keep your special items, which has a pro and a con; special items have other uses, and they can be taken away and take up space -Within your non-equipment balancing system, you should really only add +10CS because you get +5 off of lore-circles -Maybe subtract 1EP? -For starting Magnakai in the non-increase system, it's even worse; Psi-Surge doesn't work on everything and costs EP Thanks btw
|
|
|
Post by Black Cat on Dec 16, 2005 6:33:58 GMT
-Also if you completed the previous books, you get to keep your special items, which has a pro and a con; special items have other uses, and they can be taken away and take up space Not all Special Items are allowed in the GM series. Check the list at the beginning of each GM books. -Within your non-equipment balancing system, you should really only add +10CS because you get +5 off of lore-circles Nope. When Joe wrote the rules for the GM series, he thought that somebody starting there wouldn't have the 5 bonus points from the Lorecircles, the 4 bonus points from the Weaponmastery (rank of Scion-Kai) and the 6 bonus point from the Kai-Surge (rank of Archmaster). These are 15 points that are added to the 10 base points of the CS score when starting in the Kai or Magnakai series. Someone starting with the GM series doesn't have these 15 points to add to the basic 10 of his CS score. Instead, when picking his score, he has to add 25 (which includes the bonuses enumerated + 10 basic CS points) and not 10 like in the precedent series. What I was saying in my demonstartion is that when replacing your bonuses granted by some Mgnakai Disciplines by their GM equivalent, you are disadvantaged. That's why I'm still thinking that the Rules Handbook needs a modification. So, here, just play the GM series 3 different times: once like if you were a rookie starting with book 13, once with all the rules from the rule handbook and once with my system. You'll see which one is the most equilibrate. Why? You've played all the other adventures before. What would be the point to have played the other books before if it doesn't give you anything? Oh sure, there might be some Special Items, but other than the Sommerswerd and Dagger of Vashna, not all of them can be automatically picked during an adventure. Having 1 extra EP is a loyalty bonus, just like the Curing discipline can still be used in the GM series if you have played all the precedent adventures.
|
|
|
Post by kamqute on Dec 16, 2005 7:13:42 GMT
I'm sorry, I'm still confused. What I was referring to was the time when you said this:
"So, here's my solution: when transfering your CS score from Magnakai to Grand Master, add 15 to your CS, and then you can replace the previous bonuses granted by Magnakai disciplines by their Grand Master's equivalent. Like that, you'll have a bigger CS score than the rookie could have at the beginning of the Grand Master series (just like it actually happens when transfering CS score from Kai to Magnakai), but at the end of the GM series, both players should have the same CS score. At least it gives you a CS advantage in the earlier books of this series."
What I'm saying is that you would still have +5 from the lore-circle, so if you were trying to balance things out, you would only up CS by 10.
Rookie: 25+x+5(GWM)=30+x Veteran: 10+x+5(LC)+5(GWM)+10=30+x
Right?
I omit the +4/+6/+8 from Kai-Surge because, as I said above, it doesn't work on everything and it costs ya.
And when I refer to keeping your special items, I am referring to the mechanical boni they give you, inferior to inherent boni as they are. You can get up to +15, I believe; not to mention +2 EP as well.
EDIT: Also, is there a consensus that the increase to CS of 15 is supposed to correspond to those exact boni you stated (Lore-Circles+Weaponmastery+Psi-Surge), or is that simply your way of balancing the options?
As I say, it could be to balance the equipment; +8 SS, +2 Helm, +2 Bracers, +3 Kagonite
|
|
|
Post by Thomas Wolmer on Dec 16, 2005 11:45:06 GMT
My standard answer to this question (which of course takes some playing to arrive at): The GM books are way easier to complete with an equipped, Magnakai-disciplined veteran character than with a newly rolled character, so there is no reason to believe that those veteran characters would need to have their stats boosted.
[Edit: I meant veteran with Magnakai Disciplines, of course.]
|
|
|
Post by Al on Dec 16, 2005 14:31:56 GMT
But BC, what you are not taking into account is that a veteran will begin with a lot of equipment that will raise his scores (such as a plus 8 from the SS)
In another thread it is demonstrated that when you factor in all the bonuses from both equipment and lore circles that you actually come out pretty even in the end.
But on another note, starting all over would be like RPG suicide, it would be ending your character just when he is about to start a whole new adventure!
Al
|
|
|
Post by kamqute on Dec 16, 2005 20:20:14 GMT
Thank you, everyone. I gather from all of this talk that the first part of my question has been answered; according to the rules, you do not increase your CS and EP by 10 at the beginning of the GM books. Right?
Therefore, I would like to move on to my second question. I want to know whether it is fair, in game balance terms, to give up my Special Items and reduce my lore-circle EP bonus by 1 in favor of bringing my Lore-Circle CS bonus up to the value of the 15 difference between Magnakai and Kai base CS. The premise would be that I gave up my possessions and my old way of life in favor of complete focus on attainment of mental and physical perfection. The considerations I can think of are the following:
-I would still be better off than the standard rookie, because I would have my old backpack items, the nonmechanical lore-circle benefits (i.e. "if you have completed..."), the Magnakai disciplines and my past experiences. But the fact is that a non-rookie would already be better off than a rookie counterpart without this trade-off;
------Lore-Circle EP boni for a naked Lone Wolf add up to 11, 1 higher than the new increase
------Lore-Circle CS boni for a naked Lone Wolf add up to only 5, 10 lower, but the equipment (8[SS], 3[KC], 2[SH], 2[SB]) can add up to 15, bringing you up to 20
------Special Items also have nonmechanical benefits, especially the SS
-Thus, I would basically be trading in the following, vs. the veteran:
My 5 higher CS, 3 higher EP (I did manage to get all the buff items by accident), and nonmechanical special item benefits in favor of increased security of my stats
-And I would have the following benefits over a normal rookie:
My backpack items, experiences, Lore-Circle and Magnakai nonmechanical benefits
So the question is, do y'all think that's fair, and if not, what else should I give up, if anything?
Also, how did y'all play through this part?
|
|
|
Post by Black Cat on Dec 16, 2005 21:08:52 GMT
But BC, what you are not taking into account is that a veteran will begin with a lot of equipment that will raise his scores (such as a plus 8 from the SS) Ok, I'll rephrase what I was meaning. The rules handbook is wrong when it says that you have to change your Magnakai Disciplines bonuses by the GM equivalent. Demonstration: Rookie starting with book 13: CS = 25 + X Long-time player that has played all the books before book 13: CS = 10 + 5 (LC) + 4 (WM) + 6 (PS) + X = 25 + X Now, let's say that both players are picking the same disciplines of Grand Weaponmastery and Kai-Surge: Rookie starting with book 13: CS = 25 + 8 (KS) + 5 (GW) + X = 38 + X Long-time player that has played all the books before book 13: Here, it is tricky, since the rules handbook says about the Magnakai disciplines that give you bonus to your CS score: In other words, you don't stack up the bonuses: you substract the Magnakai bonus and then you add the GM bonus. Let's do the calculation again: CS = 10 + 5 (LC) + 4 (WM) + (-4 + 5 (GW)) + 6 (PS) + (-6 + 8 (KS)) + X = (28 + X)* See? That's what I mean! Replacing the Magnakai bonuses by the GM bonuses disadvantage you! That's why I'm saying that you have to add 10 to your CS when starting book 13 if you want to follow what the rules handbook says: CS = (10 + 5 (LC) + 4 (WM) + (-4 + 5 (GW)) + 6 (PS) + (-6 + 8 (KS)) + X) + 10 = 38 + X Another solution would be to stack up the GM bonuses over the Magnakai ones: CS = 10 + 5 (LC) + 4 (WM) + 6 (PS) + 5 (GW) + 8 (KS) + X = 38 + X Just for kamqute, demonstration why taking off 1 EP to your score is not very important: Rookie starting with book 13: EP = 30 + X Long-time player that has played all the books before book 13: EP = 20 + 11 (LC) + X = 31 + X There's not much difference here. Take the 1 extra EP as a loyalty bonu for having played all the other books. I would like that outspaced or Thomas Wolmer look at the demonstration and tells me what they are thinking. *Don't tell me that I'm not taking into account items that can add to my CS score, since only the SS can be picked for sure along the way of the first 12 books of the series. All the other Special Items that give CS or EP bonuses can be missed by a player during his adventures. So, even if you count the + 8 CS granted by the SS, you end up having a CS of 36 + X, which is still lower than what a rookie can have.
|
|
|
Post by kamqute on Dec 16, 2005 21:26:26 GMT
OK. I think you don't quite get what my objective is. I'm not trying to have the best stats I possibly can. I want to know this: a. The rules b. If what I intend to do is fair, and if not, how to make it so Secondly, I guess we agree on what I thought we didn't agree on; you said "That's why I'm saying that you have to add 10 to your CS when starting book 13 if you want to follow what the rules handbook says"; I had thought that you thought that it was 15. Thirdly, if, as you say when referring to equipment, that you shouldn't take account of what you could possibly miss (and the silver helm and silver bracers are pretty hard to miss), you are assuming that the LW you want is as puny as possible--I call that overpowering yourself; especially as I even got the Kagonite. Fourthly, Psi-Surge and Mindblast are not really true boni anyway; they're skills; although I guess that helps make your case. Thanks
|
|
|
Post by Thomas Wolmer on Dec 16, 2005 22:56:41 GMT
I would like that outspaced or Thomas Wolmer look at the demonstration and tells me what they are thinking. Your figures are right, but I think that you are staring at the wrong factors. A rookie must select GW to be able to survive (but mosty likely won't anyway); a veteran doesn't have to, so he will select another discipline and have better chances, and so on. Look at the survival ratio, not just at the stats! (As always: Note that I haven't played the GM books that PA hasn't published yet, so I don't know if the last books will turn impossible for a non-boosted veteran.) Joe obviously did not use logic to (try to) balance the books; the Kimah fight should be enough proof of this. So I don't think logic will help in trying to reconstruct some other intention than what was actually written out.
|
|
|
Post by Black Cat on Dec 17, 2005 2:24:03 GMT
I would like that outspaced or Thomas Wolmer look at the demonstration and tells me what they are thinking. Your figures are right, but I think that you are staring at the wrong factors. A rookie must select GW to be able to survive (but mosty likely won't anyway); a veteran doesn't have to, so he will select another discipline and have better chances, and so on. Look at the survival ratio, not just at the stats! Ok, but at the end of book 20, once all the disciplines will have been picked by both players, there will still be a differential of 10 CS points that the rookie will have more than the veteran.
|
|
|
Post by kamqute on Dec 17, 2005 4:16:33 GMT
I agree with Black Cat on that; long-term's what counts! And a rookie doesn't need GW; I tried going thru 13 as a rookie w/o it and made it just fine. (d*** hard though, yes)
|
|
|
Post by Al on Dec 19, 2005 8:47:27 GMT
Your figures are right, but I think that you are staring at the wrong factors. A rookie must select GW to be able to survive (but mosty likely won't anyway); a veteran doesn't have to, so he will select another discipline and have better chances, and so on. Look at the survival ratio, not just at the stats! Ok, but at the end of book 20, once all the disciplines will have been picked by both players, there will still be a differential of 10 CS points that the rookie will have more than the veteran. The rookie will lack the Sommersword, the Silver Helm, the magic armour, silver bow, Mindblast (not psi-surge, because you get injured using that) etc... FActor all that you have earned in and I think the Veteran will come out on top 95% of the time. Al
|
|
|
Post by Black Cat on Dec 19, 2005 19:58:04 GMT
The rookie will lack the Sommersword, the Silver Helm, the magic armour, silver bow, Mindblast (not psi-surge, because you get injured using that) etc... FActor all that you have earned in and I think the Veteran will come out on top 95% of the time. Al If you count the Sommerswerd (the only item that you can pick for sure), it only adds 8 to your CS, which is still a 2 CS disadvantage for the veteran. And stop telling me that I have to take in consideration the Special Items: the rookie that starts playing Lone Wolf with book 6 doesn't have the Sommerswerd either, which means that he has not the advantage of the veteran. If at the beginning of book 6 the veteran has 8 extra CS more over the rookie because of the Sommerswerd, why shouldn't I have that same advantage at the beginning of book 13? Why should it be: "It compensates for the lost of CS that comes from the PA rule about replacing Magnakai disciplines by the GM ones."? The whole point of my argument is that it is said nowhere in the GM books that I have to replace my Magnakai disciplines by the GM ones. That rule was added by the PA staff that made an interpretation based on the transition from the Kai to Magnakai series, which was okay in that situation by that shouldn't apply for the GM series.
|
|