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Post by Thomas Wolmer on Dec 19, 2005 20:14:06 GMT
The whole point of my argument is that it is said nowhere in the GM books that I have to replace my Magnakai disciplines by the GM ones. That rule was added by the PA staff that made an interpretation based on the transition from the Kai to Magnakai series, which was okay in that situation by that shouldn't apply for the GM series. We do not agree on the "shouldn't", no... we think it should, because otherwise the books become too easy. We also think that it is supported by things like "Kai-surge, Psi-surge, and Mindblast cannot be used simultaneously." in the Grand Master Disciplines rules section, and that you have to make the distinction in battles like in TPLoR Section 120.
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Post by Black Cat on Dec 19, 2005 20:27:28 GMT
The thing is not "replacing the discipline", it's "replacing the CS bonus granted by the discipline", which unbalanced the book in favor of a rookie that doesn't have to replace that bonus. Anyways, it looks like I won't be able to change your mind. The only thing that could would be that if Joe himself tells us what he had in mind about the transition.
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Post by Thomas Wolmer on Dec 19, 2005 20:52:25 GMT
I just don't see how you would play that last battle I mentioned though. What CS score would a veteran GM without Kai-surge use? With Kai-surge? How many EP would you subtract each round? Would this be different for a rookie?
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Post by Black Cat on Dec 19, 2005 21:39:16 GMT
I just don't see how you would play that last battle I mentioned though. What CS score would a veteran GM without Kai-surge use? With Kai-surge? How many EP would you subtract each round? Would this be different for a rookie? Good question. In this case, my idea is that until I master the GM discipline, I'm affected if I can't use my Magnakai discipline, but only if I have played the precedent adventures. A veteran player without Kai-Surge: CS = 10 + 5 (LC) + 4 (WM) + 6 (PS) + x = 25 + x Since he can't use PS in this battle: CS = 25 - 6 + x = 19 + x Rookie player without Kai-Surge: CS = 25 + x In this case, advantage to the rookie: he didn't played the other adventures and probably don't know what are the CS bonuses granted by the Magnakai disciplines. Veteran player with Kai-Surge: CS = 10 + 5 (LC) + 4 (WS) + 6 (PS) + x = 25 + x Since the PA says to replace the PS bonus by the KS one: CS = 25 - 6 + 8 + x = 27 + x Rookie player with Kai-Surge: CS = 25 + 8 + x = 33 + x Here, I have mastered the GM discipline, so I shouldn't be affected anymore if I cannot use the Magnakai discipline. The 6 CS granted by PS should be untouchable once I have KS. I should then have also 33 + x as a CS. At the end of book 20, me and the rookie should have a similar CS, something along the line of 25 + 5 (GW) + 8 (KS) + 8*1 (bonus for completing the 8 GM books) + x = 46 + x. The only thing that would give me an adavntage over the rookie in the CS column would be my Special Items. With the rule of replacing Magnakai by GM disciplines, the veteran will have a CS lower of 9-10 points at the end of book 20 compare to the rookie. My Special Items should compensate for that lost (again, only the Sommerswerd is sure to be picked along the way, so I might still miss 1-2 CS to reach the CS score of the rookie), but why at the beginning of the Magnakai series the Special Items give an advantage to the veteran and not in the GM series?
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Post by Al on Dec 20, 2005 9:29:58 GMT
Maybe I am wrong with this, but after looking through the books this is what I have worked out...
Veteran
CS 19 +Lore Circle (+5) +Grand Weapon mastery (+4) = 28 In addition he can use MindBlast +3 or Psi Surge +6 (both bonuses for Archmaster) =31/34
EP 29 + Lore Circle (+11) = 40
In addition the Veteran can fight in hand to hand without a weapon for less points, have a plus two with bows, can heal (and use the Archmaster curing for plus 20 EP when below 6)
The veteran may have any of the equipment available, which of course adds to both CS and EP
Rookie
CS 34
EP 39
It should be noted that Grand Deliverance does not give the power to heal 1EP per page, that ability is only gained if you are a veteran.
So I fail to see how a rookie GM is better off than a Veteran.
Al
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Post by Black Cat on Dec 20, 2005 16:48:28 GMT
Maybe I am wrong with this, but after looking through the books this is what I have worked out... Veteran CS 19 +Lore Circle (+5) +Grand Weapon mastery (+4) = 28 In addition he can use MindBlast +3 or Psi Surge +6 (both bonuses for Archmaster) =31/34 EP 29 + Lore Circle (+11) = 40 In addition the Veteran can fight in hand to hand without a weapon for less points, have a plus two with bows, can heal (and use the Archmaster curing for plus 20 EP when below 6) The veteran may have any of the equipment available, which of course adds to both CS and EP Rookie CS 34 EP 39 It should be noted that Grand Deliverance does not give the power to heal 1EP per page, that ability is only gained if you are a veteran. So I fail to see how a rookie GM is better off than a Veteran. Al Yes you are right: both players are equal. Where I have a problem is where it says that I have to replace my Magnakai CS bonus by the GM ones. The veteran's CS is then 34 - 6 (PS) - 4 (WM) + 5 (GW) + 8 (KS)= 37 while for a rookie his CS is 34 + 5 (GW) + 8 (KS) = 47
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Post by Zipp on Dec 20, 2005 20:02:31 GMT
I'm with Thomas on this one. You've put together a very detailed explanation Black Cat, and I see your point... but in the end, let's face it, it's just less complicated to do what the books says and replace. We replaced between the Kai and Magnakai series, didn't we?
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Post by Black Cat on Dec 20, 2005 20:04:39 GMT
I'm with Thomas on this one. You've put together a very detailed explanation Black Cat, and I see your point... but in the end, let's face it, it's just less complicated to do what the books says and replace. We replaced between the Kai and Magnakai series, didn't we? The "replace your Magnakai discipline by the GM ones" was added by the PA staff in the Rules Handbook. It is not in the gamebooks.
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Post by Al on Dec 29, 2005 17:20:49 GMT
What do you guys mean "replace"? When you transit from one to the other, you keep you CS bonus from the Kai/Magnakai disciplines, do you not? If not, this is new to me, I have always played that you do, you just do not add them together... so you still get your plus four when you start GM unless you have Grand Weapon, then you get teh plus five...
Am I mistaken in this? If so, this sounds pretty silly, afterall, it would mean that you forget skills in the transition!
Al
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Post by Black Cat on Dec 29, 2005 19:53:19 GMT
If not, this is new to me, I have always played that you do, you just do not add them together... so you still get your plus four when you start GM unless you have Grand Weapon, then you get teh plus five... Yes, that's what the PA rule states, and that's where I don't agree. This means a veteran gains only 1 CS while the rookie gets 5 CS when picking Grand Weaponmastery, although both players started with a base CS of 25. (Rookie starts with 25 + X while a veteran starts with 10 + 5 + 4 + 6 + X = 25 + X)
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Post by Oiseau on Jan 10, 2006 3:17:21 GMT
This ENTIRE argument boils down to what was intended when the rules suddenly changed from 10+X to 25+X at the beginning of the books.
Black Cat says : The extra +15 was added to compensate for LoreCircles (5), the old WeaponMastery (4) and the old PsySurge (6), which all Kaï Masters must possess to reach the Grand Master rank. Seen this way, his argument is that the veteran will have to replace his +4 with a +5 (thus gaining only 1 point) whereas a rookie will get a clean +5 on top of his assumed +4 which is incorporated in his starting stats.
I used to say, and this appears to be the general argument against Black Cat : The extra +15 was added to compensate for LoreCircles (5), the Sommerswerd (8) and the Silver Helm (2) -- wheras the Shield and the Bronin Vest were stripped from the allowed Special Item list. Seen this way, everybody replaces the Magnakaï bonuses with the Grand Master bonuses, and nobody is at a disadvantage.
Black Cat's argument is supported by the calculations done in the New Order books, which keep 25+X as a base CS for any Grand Master. This seems to imply that the extra 15 CS does come from Magnakaï Circles and Disciplines, not Special Items.
Everybody else's argument is supported by the fact that the books would become a joke if you could just add +15 to your CS when you move from Book 12 to Book 13 (on top of your Special Items) -- or, nearly equivalently, if you could stack Magnakaï and Grand Master powers.
This whole mess is because the game's balance was whacked as early as Book 2 with the darn Sommerswerd. ^_^
EDIT : Oh, and might I add that Black Cat's method makes the Grand Master books more fair for those of us who don't always roll a 9 for CS. ^_^
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Post by Al on Jan 10, 2006 12:42:22 GMT
I am not sure that PsySurge is a part of the calculation, as it is not always applicable, and it costs endurance to use. I have always just thought that it was also a way to balance the items that a veteran will have as well, cause s/he will undoubtably come into the GM series with a small arsenal of weapons at his/her disposal.
Either way, I have not encountered any problems playing through what is available so far here at PA.
That said, I think we have argued this to death.
Al
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Post by Black Cat on Jan 10, 2006 23:39:51 GMT
Black Cat's argument is supported by the calculations done in the New Order books, which keep 25+X as a base CS for any Grand Master. This seems to imply that the extra 15 CS does come from Magnakaï Circles and Disciplines, not Special Items. Thanks for bringing that up: yes, I should've said it much earlier. Well, we now have two ways of thinking: those that think like the Bird and the Cat (;D) and those that use the Aon's way.
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Post by jardek on Jan 15, 2006 21:17:43 GMT
You can roll something other than a 9 for CS?
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Post by Zipp on Jan 16, 2006 6:27:32 GMT
[ Joe obviously did not use logic to (try to) balance the books Bwa ha ha! No, he didn't! His books are great (obviously) but when it comes to difficulty I want some of what he's smoking!
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