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Post by nigthhunter on Jan 16, 2006 20:19:56 GMT
M. McKay: Drugs are bad, see!!!
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Post by Zipp on Jan 17, 2006 20:20:31 GMT
Black Cat, are you pretty much saying that you should be able to stack your bonuses from both the magnakai and grand master abilities?
I'm not sure that makes sense story wise. The Grand Master abilities are the Magnakai abilities at a higher level, as I see them. It's not a whole new ability in addition to the Magnakai ones you possess.
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Post by Black Cat on Jan 19, 2006 3:54:37 GMT
It might not make sense storywise, but like I said, if you don't do this, you'll have a smaller CS in the end than the rookie. This solution answers my question: "Why a rookie should have a higher CS than me, who had played all the precedent adventures? It doesn't make sense storywise to be lower on CS than the rookie".
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Post by Zipp on Jan 19, 2006 5:14:02 GMT
It might not make sense storywise, but like I said, if you don't do this, you'll have a smaller CS in the end than the rookie. This solution answers my question: "Why a rookie should have a higher CS than me, who had played all the precedent adventures? It doesn't make sense storywise to be lower on CS than the rookie". Ah, okay, that clarifies it for me. I asked because I always go by what makes sense in the world, not logistically.
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Post by Peregrine on Jan 20, 2006 3:10:17 GMT
Just to chime in late... Black Cat is absolutely right that a rookie gets more benefit from GM disciplines than the veteran, assuming replacement, not stacking, of Disciplines -- well, of Weaponmastery anyway. (Psi-surge and Kai-surge are perfectly capable of coexisting, but even with all the Improved Discipline upgrades, there is no reason to ever use the former if the latter is available: same EP loss for a better CS boost. And both give you the same alternative attack, a boosted Mindblast from the good old Kai days.) But because we expect a veteran to also have a stack of special equipment, this means the rookie will draw closer to the veteran in power, from a lower starting level. This may be as designed: both will be more or less even (in theory) by the end of the GM series (not counting non-stat Discipline and item bonuses, like Curing). If you use BC's stacking preference, the veteran and rookie players will increase their power in parallel, and the veteran will always be well ahead of the rookie. And yes, if you do just one pre-GM adventure, and then carry your character over, you're going to get splattered. Of course you're going to get splattered. (Especially if you play one that doesn't give you any items you can take to the GM series, like 11. No, wait. If you do that one on its own, you're going to get splattered before you ever get to the GM series. How about 7 then?) The moral of the story is: play the PA editions, then you can play right through them all! EDIT: Because I'm pedantic, but feeling slack, I ran the numbers through LWAC, which doesn't stack bonuses. The Veteran: With only the Sommerswerd, a Sun Prince (meaning you've played right up to the start of book 20) will have CS 35+X, EP 45+X. (Assuming your last GM Discipline is something non-stat boosting, like Animal Mastery.) The Rookie: With only a plain sword, a Sun Prince will have CS 37+X, EP 44+X. I've never seen the books beyond 18, but rumour has it you get a special weapon up this end of the game that would boost your CS some more. But your EP is a little bit lower than the veteran's, and more importantly, you don't have constant recovery through Curing. So. A veteran with only the Sommerswerd is a little worse off, CS-wise, than the rookie. A veteran with a more normal kit, though, will have easily another handful of CS points to close the gap (even after the rookie is offered the new weapon), and will have an even higher EP.
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Post by Black Cat on Jan 20, 2006 5:34:11 GMT
If you use BC's stacking preference, the veteran and rookie players will increase their power in parallel, and the veteran will always be well ahead of the rookie. The veteran will ALWAYS be ahead of the rookie? I think that you've missed my calculation on the first page. I'll repeat it just for you: As you can see, at the beginning of book 13, if both players pick Kai-Surge and Grand Weaponmastery, they'll be equal if the veteran use stacking. At the beginning of book 20, since you add 1 CS after each GM adventures, both players should have a CS of 45 + X. Plus, before even selecting your GM disciplines in book 13, both players will have a base CS of 25 + X. So, I'm asking you: when do the veteran is ahead of the rookie? If you don't count the Special Items, both players are equals if the veteran stack up his discipline bonus. If you count the Special Items, by book 20, the veteran will only have for sure 8 CS more because of the Sommerswerd. The two other Special Items allowed in book 20 coming from books 1 to 12 that give you a CS bonus (Silver Helm and Silver Bracers) might easily be missed when playing. And yes, in book 20, the player without the Sommerswerd gets (SPOILER) Skarn-Ska that gives you 5 CS, cutting the advantage of a Sommerswerd-wielder player to 3. So, calculation again for book 20: Rookie without Sommerswerd: 45 + 5 ( Skarn-Ska) + X = 50 + X Veteran with Sommerswerd with stacking: 45 + 8 (Sommerswerd) + X = 53 + X In the base CS, a veteran has an advantage, but for both players, the value of X could change the situation. A veteran could get a 1 while a rookie could get a 9. It's pretty much equal at the end of the GM series if you stack up bonus.
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Post by Al on Jan 20, 2006 11:02:28 GMT
I do not think we are gonig to square this circle, as one side looks at the char with kit, the other only on naked abilities.
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Post by Peregrine on Jan 21, 2006 7:13:22 GMT
No, I didn't miss the calculation. Actually, as you can see from my post, I redid it for myself. I just took it as a given that, as you say, the non-stacking approach means the rookie gets more benefit. So I skipped straight to the stats each would have at the start of the last book, at which point the rookie has gained the maximum benefit. And my conclusion was, allowing just that one guaranteed item bonus from the Sommerswerd, the veteran is slightly worse off in CS. (Spoiler: Given Skarn-Ska (thanks for reminding me of the name; here I was thinking Kai-Star, which I think is one of the New Order Kai Weapons?), the rookie has a bigger advantage. But part of my overall premise, as Al more or less said, is that 'just the Sommerswerd' is a very atypical kit for someone who's come through the first twelve books.) Therefore at the start of the series, the veteran should have had an advantage that narrowed over time. (Well, okay, that narrowed as soon as the rookie took Grand Weaponmastery -- as I said before, that's pretty much the only Discipline we're worried about here.) To illustrate, here's the numbers, from LWAC again. Veteran: CS 27+X, EP 31+X Rookie: CS 25+X, EP 30+X I haven't counted the +6CS the veteran has available from Psi-surge, or +3 from Mindblast. Kai-surge levels the playing field to +8 or +4 for both veteran and rookie. Grand Weaponmastery, now... that adds an extra +1CS to the veteran (a Scion-Kai with Weaponmastery gets +4CS), and +5CS to the rookie. That takes the rookie from 2CS behind to 2CS ahead. That's one column of the Table; an advantage to be sure, but not one worth adding 15CS to the veteran over!! And my last word on equipment: if the veteran gets stripped of all his Special Items, both he and the rookie probably lost any mundane weapon as well, and the (Grand) Weaponmastery bonus goes with it. Naked, their EP scores stay as above, but their CS scores become 15+X (veteran) versus 25+X (rookie)... so yes, I get the same 10CS deficit you do. But with all the other advantages the naked veteran has (Weaponmastery in whatever obscure weapon he finds first being a big one!), I see this as more of a challenge than a horrible, mistaken disadvantage.
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Post by Black Cat on Jan 21, 2006 23:19:04 GMT
One think bothers me: Veteran: CS 27+X, EP 31+X Rookie: CS 25+X, EP 30+X I haven't counted the +6CS the veteran has available from Psi-surge, or +3 from Mindblast. Kai-surge levels the playing field to +8 or +4 for both veteran and rookie. Where the 27 comes from? Technically, when starting the GM series, a veteran should have a base CS of 25 + X (25 comes from 10 + 5 (LC) + 4 (WM) + 6 (PS)). How can you have 27 + X as a starting CS without the equipment? Mostly, my point is: both the veteran player and the rookie starts the GM series with a minimal CS of 25 + X. For a veteran, as I showed, 25 comes from the discipline bonuses, Lorecircles and base CS of the Magnakai series. For a rookie, it's the same thing: his CS (25 + X) includes all the bonuses coming from the Magnakai series, BUT since he had never played the series before, it wouldn't make sense to tell him: "Add 10 to the number picked on the RNT, then add 5 for the Lorecircles that you would had completed if you would had played the Magnakai series, then add 4 for the blahblahblahblahblah..." Simpler to say: "Add 25 to the number picked on the RNT". If you replace the Magnakai discipline bonuses by the GM equivalent, it is like touching that basic 25 CS for the veteran. Another thing: why are you people always coming with the reason: "A veteran is better equipped than the rookie" when explaning why I should replace my bonus? I mean, the Sommerswerd is the only Special Item that you'll bring for sure in book 20. You might also find along the way the Silver Bracers and the Silver Helm. That's a 12 CS bonus to add to your CS, alright. If you stack the disciplines bonuses, you end up by book 20 with a CS of 57 + X (25 + GM disciplines + bonuses for completing the GM books + bonuses coming from the 3 named Special Item) for a veteran, and 50 + X (25 + GM disciplines + bonuses for completing the GM books + Skarn-Ska) for a rookie, an advantage of 7 CS for the veteran. But when transfering from Kai to Magnakai, a veteran could have the Sommerswerd, the Silver Helm and a Shield. That's also a 12 CS to add to his base. By book 12, since you'll be replacing your Kai disciplines by your Magnakai disciplines (I agree that when transfering from Kai to Magnakai, you have to replace), the veteran should have the same CS than the rookie: 25 + X. But, add to that the 12 CS from the named Special Items, he has an advantage of 12. So, I'm telling you: replacing my Magnakai disciplines by the GM ones because I have better equipment is not a valid reason. I had a better CS than the rookie at the end of the Magnakai series because of my equipment, but my basic CS (10 + disciplines + Lorecircles) was equal to the rookie. If you use stacking in the GM series, you'll end up with a CS higher than the rookie because of your equipment, but your basic CS (10 + Magnakai disciplines+ GM disciplines +Lorecircles) will be equal to the one of a rookie.
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Post by Oiseau on Jan 22, 2006 1:00:26 GMT
Which, once again, all boils down to interpretation of what was meant by that extra +15 in the rules of Book 13. Was it meant to compensate for the Sommerswerd and other items? Or was it meant to compensate for the Lorecircles and Discplines?
There's no way to be sure, and although the New Order series seems to hint at the second interpretation, that very same second interpretation makes the Grand Master books too easy (not counting the slew of random instant deaths) and feels like cheating (since the logical outcome is to stack bonuses which shoudn't logically be stacked, most notably Kai-Surge on top of Psy-Surge).
But the argument will never end, since both sides are right according to their own interpretation of the facts.
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Post by Peregrine on Jan 22, 2006 11:19:40 GMT
BC: I'm not counting the +6CS from Psi-surge, but I am counting the +8CS from the Sommerswerd (which you yourself said is the only guaranteed stat-boosting Special Item in the first 12 books). A little arbitrary, I suppose, but if you like, we can make it CS 33+X for the veteran.
Then the starting gap in Book 13 is 8CS over the rookie (not counting the 'optional' equipment any surviving veteran is bound to have), a gap that narrows by 6 when they both take Kai-surge, and by 4 when they take Grand Weaponmastery.
As I see it, there are three positions: * The veteran should get the same 25/30 base number the rookie gets, or else they're disadvantaged. (Some advocate a smaller boost.) * The veteran should be allowed to stack GM disciplines (mainly, perhaps only, Grand Weaponmastery) on top of earlier Disciplines, or else they're disadvantaged (because the rookie gets the full benefit). * The veteran has enough advantages already and doesn't need either boosting or stacking.
As Oiseau says, you could support any of them from, or at least without openly contradicting, the rules. I guess I just don't feel that, unless it becomes unplayable at some point, the veteran character needs any 'help'.
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Post by Black Cat on Jan 22, 2006 19:17:40 GMT
It's not about the game being unplayable otherwise: it's because it is not fair for the veteran. If you replace the Magnakai skills by the GM ones, here's what is happening at the beginning of book 20 if you also count all three Special Items that give you a CS boost:
Rookie: 25 + 5 (WM) + 8 (KS) + 7 (bonus for completing 7 previous GM books) + 5 (Skarn-ska) + X = 50 + X
Veteran: 10 + 5 (LC) + 4 (WM) + (-4 + 5) (GW) + 6 (PS) + (-6 + 8) (KS) + 8 (Sommerswerd) + 2 (Silver Helm) + 2 (Silver Bracers) + 7 (bonus for completing the 7 previous GM books) + X = 47 + X
Why is the veteran penalized? The whole debate is not that the game is unplayable: it is about the fact that the rookie has an advantaged over the veteran, which make no sense to me. At the end of the GM series, the rookie and the veteran should have the same basic CS (no SI), just like at the end of the Magnakai series both players are equal. What makes a difference between a veteran and the rookie in both series is the Special Items you've collected by playing the previous books. If you replace the Magnakai disciplines by the GM ones and that you've missed both the Silver Bracers and the Silver Helm, at the beginning of book 20 you'll be 7 points behind the rookie.
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Post by Oiseau on Jan 22, 2006 19:47:42 GMT
It's also quite possible that the "adjustment score" for the rookie (meaning the 25+X in book 13) was just thrown out at random. Somehow I doubt that Joe Dever went through any of those calculations -- Kimah and the Chaos Master are proof enough that difficulty levels were never properly computed.
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Post by Peregrine on Jan 23, 2006 4:30:10 GMT
BC: It's not that the whole debate is that it's unfair, that's just your position. Mine is that if it's not unplayable (which you've said it's not), then it doesn't matter. 'Fair', for me, doesn't come into it; I'm not competing against any other players. Yeah, I think we've exhausted the arguments now. We know what the numbers are, we're agreed that it's still playable, and I admit that it's unfair (I just don't think it matters). ...except for one last point to ponder 'cause I can't resist. How many fights will a combat skill of 59 vs 56 really matter in? (How many of those will the true pack-rat veteran have Alether or Adgana stashed away for?) PS Oh! You forgot the Kagonite Chainmail (or Bronin Vest)! Ding, +3CS, veterans can break even. It's a challenge, but that just makes it even more fun if you ask me...
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Post by Black Cat on Jan 24, 2006 3:15:27 GMT
...except for one last point to ponder 'cause I can't resist. How many fights will a combat skill of 59 vs 56 really matter in? (How many of those will the true pack-rat veteran have Alether or Adgana stashed away for?) A difference of 3 points means a difference of one column in the CRT. The last time I've played book 13, I used stacking. I had GW and I finished the fight against Exterminus with only 4 EP. Without stacking, I would had been 2 columns back on the CRT and I would had been dead. See, it's still challenging when stacking. And yes, I have to admit that I forgot the Kagonite chainmail. But once again, to reach this item, a veteran needs to get 3 or less on the RNT at a certain point to get it. The chance to get all 4 items providing CS bonus is slim, unless you've played countless times the series and that you know exactly what road to take. But a veteran playing the whole series for the first time needs the help of Lady Chance to make the right guesses.
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