Tim
Kai Lord
Posts: 28
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Post by Tim on Apr 11, 2004 21:50:04 GMT
Hey folks, Ever since I first read the Lone Wolf series, I've always wanted to develop a computer game version of the books. While I lost touch with the series as the books became harder to get a hold of, two things have happened to rekindle this desire inside of me. First, obviously, Project Aon has given me access to books I never thought I'd see again. Second, Altaris (on the Neverwinter Vault, nwvault.ign.com/) has released two chapters of his Lone Wolf Chronicles ( people.clemson.edu/~bmcjunk/Magnamund.html), which are modules for Neverwinter Nights. If you haven't played them, I highly recommend that you give them a try. I found them to be a lot of fun. Unfortunately, development of this mod stopped part way through chapter 3. I'm guessing that the project was simply too much for Altaris to complete on his own. What are your thoughts on putting a team together to either continue his work using the Neverwinter Nights engine, or start a new mod using a different game (Dungeon Siege, Morrowind, Half-Life 2)? A point in favour of continuing Altaris' work using NWN is that Mongoose Publishing ( www.mongoosepublishing.com/) will be releasing their D20 rules for the Lone Wolf setting next month. The nice thing about working with the Lone Wolf setting is that Project Aon provides a wealth of reference material. Further, the setting and plot are pretty much set already (they would have to be expanded upon of course). This isn't to say that such a project wouldn't be a huge undertaking, but it might also be a lot of fun. Anyways, I thought I would get this idea out there and see what people think of it.
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Cry Havoc
Kai Lord
And let slip the cats of war!
Posts: 18
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Post by Cry Havoc on Apr 11, 2004 23:01:18 GMT
Those two modules for NWN are actually what got me interested in Lone Wolf and visiting this site a year ago.
I like the thought of getting a mod made, but creating one would definitely be a huge undertaking, particularly in terms of the time investment. The choice of game to use ultimately depends on the type of mod that will be made. As it stands, NWN is probably the best for a RPG mod, which is what Lone Wolf is best suited to.
Have you tried contacting Altaris as to whether he's completely abandoned the project?
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Tim
Kai Lord
Posts: 28
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Post by Tim on Apr 11, 2004 23:25:53 GMT
Yeah, I agree. The type of game we want to make will have a huge impact on the underlying engine. NWN is definitely the best choice for an RPG mod. Still, there are other possibilities. Half-Life 2 or Thief 3 could be used to create a level based game where each level is a section of a book. Also, Morrowind offers an absolutely beautiful and immersive world, and it would be cool exploring Magnamund if full 3D.
I've emailed Altaris today. I'll be sure to make a post here when I get a reply.
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Post by paido on Apr 13, 2004 8:24:36 GMT
Sounds VERY cool, I'll keep my eyes peeled.
Have you guys had any experience of helping to make a mod?
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Tim
Kai Lord
Posts: 28
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Post by Tim on Apr 13, 2004 10:18:56 GMT
No, which is why I really hope that people with experience would be willing to help and/or lead the project. I do have software engineering background though, and I am currently reading a book on game design (i.e. everything that happens before the actual development of the game). From what I've read about other mod projects on the net (especially those that failed), the last thing you need is poor organization, communication, and lack of direction between team members. I guess that could be said about a lot of projects which involve several people working on them.
I just thought it would be great to get this idea out there and see what sort of reaction it gets from the community. I'll be sure to keep this thread up to date with any developments (nope, haven't heard from Altaris yet).
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deiseach
Kai Lord
Champion of the Sommerswerd
Posts: 170
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Post by deiseach on Apr 13, 2004 19:09:19 GMT
Just started toying with the first of Altaris' mods and am mighty impressed by the level of detail thus far (spotted the deliberate error: Lone Wolf was orignally called Silent Wolf ) The potential is enormous. Imagine hacking your way through Kaag in search of the kidnapped Banedon. The main problem is that I, like most people probably, would rather play it than design it!
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Post by Relenoir on Apr 13, 2004 20:58:16 GMT
I'm afraid I can't argue with that statement! I converted LW to tabletop, but have no computer programing skills whatsoever. I bet it would remind me a lot of the Zelda series, always one of my favorites.
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Tim
Kai Lord
Posts: 28
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Post by Tim on Apr 13, 2004 21:13:56 GMT
Don't jump the gun imagining what it would be like to play book 14. Book 1 hasn't even been translated into a game yet! Computer skills are relatively important when it comes to actually building the mod, but that's not to say that there aren't things you can do to help out. Every good mod needs dialog writers and play-testers. Also, I think it's important to set up a thorough design document before implementation actually begins. You would of course be welcome to critique such a document (getting a little a head of myself). Personally, I always imagined the game engine of a Lone Wolf game being as interactive as Ultima 7. The important thing to keep in mind about developing a Lone Wolf mod is that it will need to incorporate some serious deviations from the books. Given the format, Dever was free to have Lone Wolf do all sorts of amazing and fun things, all of which took place in the imagination of the reader. Translating to this visual format, some of this will get lost due to the limitations inherent in any game engine. This isn't to say that the game wouldn't be fun, but it wouldn't be 100% faithful to the books. OT: If you enjoyed the original Zelda, give this recreation for the PC a try: zeldaclassic.armageddongames.net/. Also, there is an open-source recreation of Ultima 7 available here (you still need the original game to play though, but this engine will run on Windows 9x-XP machines): exult.sourceforge.net/
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Post by Conrad on Apr 13, 2004 21:21:31 GMT
I'm not sure about the legal situation here?
I've been wanting to make a mud based on the world of Lone Wolf for many years but nobody will tell me how to contact Dever to find out the exact legal details alas.
Using a propietary copyright setting for a game which has intellectual and cirulatory rights retained by the authors would be an infringement .. and probably result in a polite but adamant request to decist.
You could not also make a MUD or a MOD without creating or filling in some details the books leave out - which is even worse than just using someone else's idea, you're legally challenging their intellectual property and they -have- to then intercede or risk loosing control of their work entirely.
So yeah .. thats what I know .. Perhaps someone can explain or ask Joe what he thinks about such things and give us a definitive answer.
Conrad.
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Tim
Kai Lord
Posts: 28
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Post by Tim on Apr 13, 2004 21:44:05 GMT
Thanks for your post Conrad.
I agree with you that any mod would have to go beyond the texts to add more details (see my edited post above).
Your points are definitely food for thought. Still, the situation can't be that bad or else there just wouldn't be as many mods out there as there are. If Dever stepped in and asked development to stop, I would of course respect his request. Still, one of the reasons I think many mods are allowed to continue their development is that they add to the fan base of a product, which in return should increase sales.
For example, a member on this forum even stated that they found Project Aon after playing Altaris' Lone Wolf mod. How many other visitors of this site played this mod first? "But how does this help Dever?" Well, think about how many readers of this site will go out and purchase the Lone Wolf RPG by Mongoose Publishing (I did today). Since they acquired the license to make this product from Dever, he is (I'm speculating here) receiving some sort of financial compensation. If the RPG sells well enough, they will likely make more books, which should only add to Mr. Dever's income.
Still, it would be nice to actually start a project knowing that I have Joe Dever's blessing.
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Post by Conrad on Apr 13, 2004 22:02:02 GMT
The problem is, anything that's quality (ie a serious attempt using serious man hours by a seriously talented team) will _require_ an official license and I bet you he doesn't give those out for free.
Since I am unemployed, living on state handouts etc. I can't afford to license the product *but* since what I plan to do is quite a serious effort as any 'quality' approach would be I'm not able to make a go of it because at any point Joe could shut it down and/or sue me for copyright infringement.
The problem is basically, that if you want to do it properly you need a license and if you can't afford a license you must accept that all your hard work can be closed down overnight or worse, legally someone else's property to profit from how they see fit. Not ideal really ..
It really is a shame there's no way to contact Joe for ordinary people like myself with an idea and something to put forward ..
I'm sure, as you say, it would be of some value to have either an official explanation/statement of how Joe considers licensing his ideas or a statement of fair use which is concise enough to allow people to go ahead and develop things within a clerly defined framework.
Conrad.
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deiseach
Kai Lord
Champion of the Sommerswerd
Posts: 170
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Post by deiseach on Apr 13, 2004 22:06:59 GMT
I'd love to be involved in playtesting something like that - play balance, bugs, scripts etc. Maybe this is the start of something big... ;D I think it would be important to keep it relatively simple, at least on the technical side. Creating a whole new game a la Ultima VII (what a game btw, and Exult is a wonderful tool) would be a logistical nightmare. I remember stumbling a few years back upon a site trumpeting a sequel to Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis. A couple of years on, the boys and girls at Amberfisharts ( www.amberfisharts.com/) don't seem to be any closer to the end. I'm not having a go, they're entitled to take as long as they like to get it right, but I think they bit off more than they could chew. No, I think a series of Neverwinter Nights modules, perhaps built around the New Order so that it could be a new challenge for the player, would work better. A website based around the idea shown in the Emperor's Hammer ( www.emperorshammer.org/),where players complete tasks then rise through the New Order, or the Magnakai if you prefer; I don't think Lone Wolf was the only Kai lord knocking around in books 7-12...well, it might just work!
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Tim
Kai Lord
Posts: 28
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Post by Tim on Apr 14, 2004 4:34:36 GMT
Oh, I wasn't suggesting that we build an engine like Ultima 7 from scratch. Modding an existing game is definitely the way to go. I was just thinking about how cool it would be to play a Lone Wolf game in an engine more interactive than NWN. NWN was built with the idea of others making their own modules, so it really is the way to go.
If a computer game set in Magnamund is to be made, I think following the books would be the best. Since everyone working on the project will have read them, they offer a unified vision of what the game should ultimately accomplish.
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Tim
Kai Lord
Posts: 28
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Post by Tim on Apr 14, 2004 4:48:23 GMT
Yeah, I agree with you here. This is essentially the risk that needs to be considered. Seeing as this will be a labour of love with no financial benefit to those involved, I doubt legal action will be taken, or that someone would attempt to profit from the project.
There is always the chance that we will be asked to close the project down, but I just don't see that happening. There have been far riskier mods out there which are using licensed material more financially active than the Lone Wolf series. Consider all of the Ultima remakes for example. Sure, Origin has stated that they don't endorse these mods, but I'm sure they also realize that these people are keeping a product line alive for them at no personal cost. This can only be a good thing with the upcoming release of Ultima X.
Given the fact that Joe Dever allowed something like Project Aon to develop, I somehow doubt he would mind if the community developed a computer game mod based on his book series. This is purely speculation on my part, and it would be nice to know what the Project Aon team thinks about all of this.
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Post by Ofecks on Apr 14, 2004 6:23:11 GMT
I always thought the LW universe would translate well to a series of digital comics, like the countless Japanese games of that type that were on consoles in the 16-bit era. The text would be exactly the same, just every section could have a nice still shot or some simple animation to illustrate what's going on. A modern 3D PC game would definitely be better, though. Too bad I'll need a serious upgrade to play anything that's made. I'm not sure if my comp could even handle Neverwinter Nights.
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