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Post by Black Cat on Aug 9, 2004 22:17:31 GMT
Robert Howard wrote the Conan stories (among others) in the 1930s. He's often credited with birthing the Sword & Sorcery genre. Whether that's similar to Tolkienesque fantasy is left to individual interpretation. I didn't know that. I'll be less dumb when I'll go to bed tonight.  |
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Post by Relenoir on Aug 10, 2004 3:16:32 GMT
Much as I love LotR and the books will always have a special place in my heart, I feel that they are good books by today's standards even though they do drag at points, and that I have read more interesting fantasy novels. However, these have been written after 50+ years of fantasy writing evolution has taken place, so I believe LotR should get the amount of credit it does as a series. It was one of the cornerstones of the whole genre, and look how many people have been influenced by it! Of course, this is coming from a guy who can't stand the Mona Lisa painting. . .  |
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Post by North Star on Aug 11, 2004 10:41:45 GMT
Tolkien invented orcs and halflings (Hobbits) and defined wizards as people with pointy hats and the Elves as tall, willowy wizards (before that, they were often tiny faeries).
I believe he was also the first to postulate an entire race of powered-up humans (the Dunedain), rather than just one or two, e.g. super-heroes.
NS.
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Post by outspaced on Aug 11, 2004 15:00:46 GMT
Tolkien invented orcs and halflings (Hobbits) He didn't actually invent them per se, though he did take his cues and ideas from a whole slew of different cultures and societies. I'm sure I read somwehere than Hobbit is based on the Hebrew world Holbytla [sic], which were a mythical race of small people in ancient Jewish culture. (My memory is hazy, but I think that information comes from a rather old Dragon (TM) Magazine artcile about how DMs can surprise their party by giving different names to the same monsters--Baobhan Sith instead of Banshee, for example.) I maintain that the sad thing is the way fantasists today are somewhat condescending towards Tolkien while wholesale ripping off his work and research, often not doing much themselves. And don't get me started on bloody soap opera! If there is any[/i] story in the Universe that is so complex and fantastic that it genuinely needs to be told over ten 500+ page books, then I'll eat my house.Tolkien avoided the boring love-interest characters that lead inexorably to the tedious falling-out and argument scenes; he also eschewed telling what every character does in explicitly minute, second-by-second detail. He didn't franchise Middle-Earth out to allow a hundred and one official but inferior authors to put their personal stamp all over certain areas of it either. I'm not one who believe that because something came first that makes it the best. I don't like The Beatles very much, and the less said about boring, overhyped films like Casablanca and Citizen Pain--er, Cane the better. But The Lord of the Rings, in my honest and humble opinion, has yet to be surpassed, and until writers stop with the soap-opera and cash-in sequelitis BS, and actually get back to telling decent stories, it won't be. This has been a party political broadcast on behalf of the Disillusions and Disgruntled Fantasy Fans Party. |
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Post by Ghost Bear on Aug 11, 2004 19:48:12 GMT
The things that bug me about LotR revolve more around the style of writing, rather than the story told, and the world created. In fact I think Middle Earth is great, and the story - although hardly original, even back then, is still a rollicking good yarn.
I found the love interests in Tolkien to be rather superficial, especially the secondary ones (Eowyn and Faramir, and Rosie and Sam), but better that than the 'love interest' characters dominating the story.
The thing I found hardest to accept is the bit about Merry being a Rohirrim (did he actually get to be a soldier like Pippin did? I don't remember), and especially the whole 'Theoden, you were like a father to me' crap. He only knew the guy five minutes for God's sake!
Erm, sorry.
Seriously though, I can certainly appreciate Tolkien's creation, but I don't think it's the best thing since sliced bread (was sliced bread invented in the 1930s?)
-GB
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Post by North Star on Aug 12, 2004 8:17:35 GMT
Outspaced, I think you mean "Citizen Kane". And were you referring to the Wheel of Time series there? Geez, I read five or six of them and it was a good thing that I LIKE reading, otherwise the 70-page prologues would have CERTAINLY put me off  Ghost Bear, I have a friend who is LotR-obsessed. He'll happily watch all ten hours of the films back-to-back, talk about it endlessly, pick tiny holes in Peter Jackson's work, complain that Tom Bombadil (arguably a thoroughly boring character) wasn't in the film etc. etc. He's the person who buys it in August and then exchanges his August purchase for the full edition in November, plus the T-shirt and mug which of course become sacred property that no others may defile. *roll* Anyhow, I remember that ancient Dragon article, Outs! And yes, I also seem to remember about the Holbytla, which is where Tolkien got the name. He of course based the Halflings on rural Englishmen who like nothing more than peace, comfort, good food and relaxation NS. |
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Post by outspaced on Aug 12, 2004 17:52:34 GMT
Outspaced, I think you mean "Citizen Kane". Ah yes, my bad. An American-made film, directed by an American, for American audiences, and beloved by the AFI ( American Film Institute). I happen to not be American.  Sadly, I didn't actually have any particular series in mind when I wrote that. All fantasy these days seems to revolve around endless cycles of books that go on and on and on and on and never end. I find it boring. Recurring characters I can cope with. A succession of stories set in the same fantasy world I have no problem with. But an ongoing saga that drags on ad tedium is rather insulting to the readers, IMHO. I've become rather picky in my reading these days (comes from having less time than when I was younger, I suppose), so I'm not prepared to trawl through a huge book knowing that there are a further half-dozen to read after that one. I can't be bothered. Ah, back in the day when Dragon was worth reading! Those were the days. Why, I remember working down the mill for sixpence a week and . . . erm, I'll stop with the tedious reminiscing. Remember the 'Your Basic Barbarian' article from issue 180? That one still makes me laugh to this day! ;D |
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Post by KaiLord on Aug 12, 2004 23:57:05 GMT
You said it. Nowadays it is a sorry magazine. I let my subscription expire last month. If I weren't holding my 10-week bold girl whilst propping up my immobilized injured knee (ligament..argh  ), I'd search my archives and find it for you--it was quite interesting to see where all those names came from. I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in my lackluster opinion of the LotR books, too. KL, whose proofreaders are begging him to submit to the big publishing houses |
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Post by Relenoir on Aug 13, 2004 2:29:52 GMT
I can't remember anything that it said, but I DO remember reading it an laughing my head off! Good one, I'd like to see that again!
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Post by KaiLord on Aug 13, 2004 7:12:50 GMT
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Post by Archdruid on Aug 13, 2004 7:36:30 GMT
Ah, back in the day when Dragon was worth reading! Those were the days. Why, I remember working down the mill for sixpence a week and . . . erm, I'll stop with the tedious reminiscing. Remember the 'Your Basic Barbarian' article from issue 180? That one still makes me laugh to this day! ;D My creative writing teacher in high school was very proud of the story he sold to Dragon. It was called "One-Eyed Death," I believe. He showed us the cover on the overhead projector and everything. |
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Post by Archdruid on Aug 13, 2004 7:38:03 GMT
Robert Howard wrote the Conan stories (among others) in the 1930s. He's often credited with birthing the Sword & Sorcery genre. Whether that's similar to Tolkienesque fantasy is left to individual interpretation. www.crossplains.com/howard/I missed the 1930s pulp fantasy discussion? |
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Post by North Star on Aug 13, 2004 9:47:55 GMT
*thinks Outs is a kindred spirit* Come here and be my ghost companion! NS. |
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Post by outspaced on Aug 13, 2004 12:12:40 GMT
If I weren't holding my 10-week bold girl whilst propping up my immobilized injured knee (ligament..argh ), I'd search my archives and find it for you--it was quite interesting to see where all those names came from. Wow! Your daughter is already fearless at 10 weeks! Actually, I'm one of the sad few who has the Dragon Magazine Archive--PDF versions of issues 1-250. I bought it on a whim and have hardly used it.  At least my 'collector impulse' was satiated for a short while, though. [Edit: I see you are too, KL. ] And I'm begging you for those Magnamund Companion scans you promised! But not too much, though. Don't want to wake her. |
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Post by outspaced on Aug 14, 2004 8:32:45 GMT
*thinks Outs is a kindred spirit* Come here and be my ghost companion! Cool: another kindred spirit. Heya! As for being a ghost--nah, not really my style. However, if you have any electrical or mechanical equipment, I could get it to work intermittently or even stop working altogether if you'd like. That's what gremlins are for! |
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), I'd search my archives and find it for you--it was quite interesting to see where all those names came from.
At least my 'collector impulse' was satiated for a short while, though.