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Post by Wayan on Sept 29, 2004 10:23:02 GMT
Okay after getting to book 11 of the series online (and dying repeatedly) at the CM... well okay I got past himm once but that was cheating as I choose to allow myself to use end restoring items mid battle... and even doing that the following events and hardly any endurance sealed my fate, I am now in the process of searching for ways to makes this book a little more managable as its really ticking me off. I don't want to, get past it if I can't do it reasonably fairly. So I'm going to start the series again, and try maximise my potential. However after reading through here it has open my eyes to interpretating the rules, as I do find them as many of you have open to debate. Up until now I haven't even tryed using two weapons as I've been interpretting the text (probably wrongly so) as me having to hold my bow in one of my weapon hands and my Sommerswerd in the other. However I'm starting to think I am at flaw here and that I actually can shoulder it, and carry another weapon there. So after reading through many of these threads I am trying to come up with a staple set of ruiles for myself to follow rearding weapons. I am going to write down here what my rules are, and I would like for you veteran players to analyse it, and pick it apart. I wish it to be somewhat fair but further more realistic in terms of what the body can carry and use. Okay as was mentioned in another thread I'm adopting the idea that under no circumstance in the Normal Kai books can I dual wield. I only have weapon mastery of one weapon so only one weapon I will use... well bar the shield. Once that limitation is up though in the Mag Kai books. I am going to stipulate I can only dual weild one hand weapons. Though if both my hands are full (and I am not using one of the special beltable weapons in my off hand) I can't use my bow, even though I may have it strapped to my back unless I am willing to drop one of my weapons. I am undecided wether I should drop them permanantly as realistically once danger is avoided I should be able to pick it back up, but then what would be the point of dropping it in the first place... although the penalty of not having its CS modify's during whatever melee combat arises after I fire my bow if at all could be a bit of one it still seems a little leniant... where as dropping it altogether til I come across another pick-up able weapon. seems a lit fairer. Besides if I take a beltable weapon it kinda makes this a moot point as I'll circumvent this altogether. (input on which system you think would be better would be much appreciated folks). Also while dual wielding I am thinking there needs to be some penalty so I am planning on not using its full CS bonus given with the Weapon mastery feat. Instead I will give it only the +2 addage of the lesser weapon disciple. it just seems that an offhand weapon (as in D&D) should not be as fully effective as it would be solo wielding. My other nit picking point is the ability to wear two armour types i.e two certain body armours (which I didn't know of before searching on here), not a helmet and a body armour.. It just seems to me to be a little well.. I would think encumbering. Even though its been permitted... I think I'm going to adopt the one set of body armour rule only. Then again I've only got to book 11 in the series so maybe further sets of armour you come across of lighter weight later on in the series (if any) may make sense to be worn together. Anywhere thus far these are the thoughts I'm muling on, and as can be seen I'm not at a firm rule set yet which I want to be before I restart,. i would like you guys with much more Lonewolf experience than I to give me your input and help me hammer this one out given the loose idea's set above. You input on making this system useable would be greatly appretiated even if you wouldn't use a dual wielding system yourself. I am after all trying to make a fair system, not just one with max CS, as i still would like a challenge, but also just a little more of a breathing space when I get to a certain book. However given my own stipulations here I'm not sure how much of abreathing space I'm going to give myself . Thanks in advance for any input.
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Post by Wayan on Sept 29, 2004 10:59:43 GMT
Okay I know this is going to get confusing and maybe I should of just edited my first post, but... I wished to illustrate my thought process so people can see where I'm coming from or have been mentally regarding this so I thought I'd add my new thoughts to another post.
After re-reading my post I've been given the dual wielding thing some more thought and here's my admendments to my prior thinking.
I believe regardless of wether I am using a beltable weapon or some other form of weapon, if I choose to use my bow Dual wielding for the subsequent melee rounds is out of the questioning. Shouldering the bow I would imagine would be quite time consuming, and wouldn't give me the oportunity to shoulder and unclip my beltable weapons. Where as if I opt not to fire my bow it gives me ample enough time to ready my dual wielding weapons and stance. Also regarding the dropping of my non beltable second weapon I am now of the thinking picking it back up after melee combat shouldn't quite be amicable. As during the fighting it could of been trodden under foot, broken, or just kicked to an un reachable place quite easily. I am however trying to think of some kind of boon to bringing along a second weapon thats not beltable (otherwise people wont bother and will just stick to the beltable option everytime. Besides this also allows you to use both a beltable and a second hand weapon (of course until you discard it, and not at the same time obviously as you only have two hands... and change to the beltable weapon requires the loss of the first. hmmmm I am unsure what advantage to give these droppable second hand weapons though.... maybe due to you carrying them around you have become accustom to the weight so the full cs is applicable (not the -1 that the off hand beltable weapon has). My realism factor for this, as the buckling and rebuckling of the wepon, doesn't allow you arm to become acustom to it, where as with holding it constantly would...
hmmm so once again I ask for your idea's/thoughts on this.
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Post by North Star on Sept 29, 2004 11:56:25 GMT
Ideas has no apostrophe in it.
Incidentally, about the two weapons rule, I always included the Sommerswerd as one of my two weapons (two weapons, plus Bronin Warhammer, Helshezag, Dagger of Vashna, Silver Bow, ...).
I think the general concensus was that during Magnakai and GM series, you double your (Grand) Weaponmastery bonus if you are proficient in both weapons wielded. I agree with your bow idea (no two-weapon style if you had your bow ready) and I wouldn't use the Sommerswerd as part of a two-weapon combo.
NS.
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columbob
Kai Lord
Up the Irons!
Posts: 161
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Post by columbob on Sept 29, 2004 13:05:24 GMT
The advantage of dual-weapon use is pretty low anyways, since a shield gives you +2CS already. A second weapon giving you +3CS (+4CS at a higher level) isn't that much of an advantage over the use of the shield.
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Holmes I didnt sign in
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Post by Holmes I didnt sign in on Sept 29, 2004 17:13:21 GMT
The advantage of dual-weapon use is pretty low anyways, since a shield gives you +2CS already. A second weapon giving you +3CS (+4CS at a higher level) isn't that much of an advantage over the use of the shield. It could possibly mean the difference of a column on the Combat Ratio chart...which may or may not have a great deal of effect on the way the combat is going (an extra column shift to the right would work wonders in the fight in question). And I think the Shield isn't considered an acceptable Special Item to take into the Grandmaster series in any case (guess that poor hunk of wood finally got 'shivered' in the constant duels against Darklords in 12, hey? ;D) Out of curiousity, how many folks actually use dual weapon rules while going through the gamebooks? I personally don't. I do use the 'two handed weapon' rules outlined later in the series (no Broadsword and Shield combinations, for example)
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Post by Ghost Bear on Sept 29, 2004 17:36:01 GMT
I use them. The idea of dual weapons is a cool one, not to mention that it helps out (a lot) in combat against the touger opponents.
And as regards to your initial ideas, there are two things I have to question:
1. What's the point of only giving +2CS when you can use a shield for +2 anyway (admittedly only in the Magnakai books)?
2. It's been stated by Joe in a Newsletter that there are some combinations of armour types that are permitted.
Here's what I understand to be allowed.
Chainmail Waistcoat + Padded Leather Waistcoat.
This was stated in a Newsletter.
Padded Leather Waistcoat + Bronin Vest
If you can wear a Chainmail Waistcoat with the Padded Leather Waistcoat, you should be able to wear a Bronin Vest
Padded Leather Waistcoat + Chainmail Waistcoat + Kagonite Chainmail
OR
Padded Leather Waistcoat + Bronin Vest + Kagonite Chainmail
Here's what was stated in Book 12 about Kagonite Chainmail:
However, after Book 12, you can't use the Chainmail Waistcoat, the Padded Leather Waistcoat or the Bronin Vest in the GM series anyway.
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Post by Sarra on Sept 30, 2004 2:54:24 GMT
Okay here are the rules that I use regarding dual weapons. 1. No dual weapons can be used in the first 5 books (obviously). 2. At the beginning of my Magnakai training I can use dual weapons but only with single-handed weapons. 3. Just as Wayan stated there is a penalty for using a weapon in your off-hand UNLESS you are using two of the following weapons. BOTH weapons you are using in combat must be on this list. Axe Dagger Short Sword Warhammer If you use any other combination during the Magnakai levels of training (eg. Sword and Dagger, or Sword and Sword) you recieve a -1 to your Combat Skill bonuses that apply. 4. Once you obtain the Grandmaster levels of training you may use almost any two types of weapon in combat. If you are fighting with two two-handed weapons however there is a -2 to your Combat Skill bonuses. You may use ANY combination of the following weapons in combat without suffering any penalties. Dagger Short Sword Mace Warhammer Sword Axe If you use a two-handed weapon AND a one-handed weapon (eg. Broadsword and Dagger) there is only a -1 Combat Skill penalty. 5. At no time may you use a Quarterstaff or a Spear with ANY other weapon (just isn't logical). 6. The following weapon combinations are not acceptable... - Sommerswerd and Helshezag - Magic Spear and any other weapon 7. Bows - If you are going to use a bow and have been involved in a one on one combat within the last TWO sections (provided no great amount of time has elapsed, only partains to dual weapon usage) when asked to pick a number from the Random Number Table you must automatically deduct the following from that number depending on your rank. Magnakai - 3 Grandmaster - 1 Other rules I have altered...okay, regarding what Wayan said about cheating in book 11 by using end restoring itmes mid battle. I asumed this, you can use those sort of items (eg. Laumspur, Oede, Rendalim) HOWEVER, doing so costs you a turn in combat. In other words the following combat round your enemy cannot recieve damage. I know that was alot to spit out. Tell me what yall think. This is what I have used for a long time (after playing LW for a few years I found the rules too broad for my taste).
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Post by Sarra on Sept 30, 2004 3:00:06 GMT
Oh, one more thing. I know most of you will think this cheating but oh well. I always considered the Silver Oak Bow to be a Special Weapon despite what it says in the text of the Kingdoms of Terror. With that however I decided that there be a 3 weapon limit on 'special weapons'. So in other words I could only carry 3 of the following weapons at a time. Sommerswerd Magic Spear Dagger of Vashna Helshezag Bronin Warhammer Crystal Mace Silver Oak Bow This of course doesn't stop me from strategically leaving a weapon or two behind at the Kai Monastery.
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Post by Black Cat on Sept 30, 2004 3:29:00 GMT
I know most of you will think this cheating but oh well. I always considered the Silver Oak Bow to be a Special Weapon despite what it says in the text of the Kingdoms of Terror. The Silver Bow is in the list of Special Items allowed for the Grand Master series, so it is obvious that it is not cheating in book 6 to say that it is a Special Item. Anyway, I never used the dual weapon system. It's just complicating the game. As stated by someone else in another thread (I can't remember who and where), the rules were made to be simple, and even if they're not in your favor, they were made like that. In a hockey game between pee-wees, if your last-place team plays against the best team of the league in the first round of the playoff (like it is in almost every league) and that you know that your team has 99% of chances of losing, you will not be allowed to get Wayne Gretzky to play for your team to get a better chance to win. It is the rule, and even if it's not in your favor, you have to stick to it. But if your team wins, you'll be twice more thrilled. That's why I stick to the rules most of the times, because it more rewarding to beat the Chaosmaster without cheating. By winning without efforts, you end up triumphing without glory. I know there's a lot of luck involved in the LW series, but you can make decisions that will reduce the proportion of luck. But if you want to change the rules so they can help you, you can do it. Any ways of playing this series is good.
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Post by Wayan on Sept 30, 2004 7:18:20 GMT
Okay after reading all your reply's here's is what I have come up with.
Wayan's Dual wield System:
1.) No Dual wielding at all till the mag Kai series. (standard) 2.) I must have one free hand to use my bow period. If not I have the option to drop one of my hand held weapons (discarded indefinatly) or not use my bow. 3.) If I have a beltable special weapon this weapon doesn't need to be dropped as it can be stored in my belt when using my bow... 4.) If I use my bow the following (if any) melee fight I can not revert back to dual weilding and must use only my remaining handed weapon. 5.) While dual wielding in the Mag series. (going by weight here) the penalty's are as followed. I may dual weild any light weight weapons (e.g) Dagger, Short sword, mace) free of penalty. Normal CS applies. A light weapon and a Mid-Sized weapon (e.g, Sword, warhammer, Axe) May be weild but with a -1 CS penalty. Two Mid-sized weapons would equal a -2 CS penalty. Dual weilding two handed weapons is out of the question.
6.) In the Grandmaster series all these Penatly's would be lessened. You would be able to dual weild a light and mid weapon free of penalty. 2 mid-Sized weapons with a penalty of -1 CS. Still dual weilding two handed weapons is a no no. I beleive it's two handed for a reason. And would likely do youself more damage than good trying regardless how good you are. There just two heavy.
I would also like to borrow Ronan's idea of 'If you are going to use a bow and have been involved in a one on one combat within the last TWO sections (provided no great amount of time has elapsed, only partains to dual weapon usage) when asked to pick a number from the Random Number Table you must automatically deduct the following from that number depending on your rank. Magnakai - 3 Grandmaster - 1' I'll admit so far I can't remeber a time when it's come about this way round (though it probably has I just never took much notice) as I beleive that to also be quite logical.
Also thanks to Ghost bear I have re-evaluated my stance on the armour thing. As I now have the official word on it I shall go along with it, as it seems fine enough (Thanks Bear).
And these are the rules I plan on following. They seem fine enough to me (as far as dual weapon systems go). I however am the LW newbie so still ask for y'alls opnion. Would you in you opnion consider these rules to be okay (as far as dual weilding systems go?). I conceed that compared to some its all cheating regardless, so I really doubt I'll convert your thinking on that anyway, but as far as cheating goes, would you deem it a fair system? and those of you who dual weild, would you (not asking you too) but would you be fine with a system like this? Once again I would ask for any flaw's in this system to be pointed out. Like I said I'm a new commer and although it looks fine to me, you all have a lot more knowledge about this game realm than I do.
Thanks again!
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Post by Ghost Bear on Sept 30, 2004 12:12:03 GMT
Well, my use of dual weapons is far more liberal than either of your systems. Both look good to me, although I don't think you should have to drop a weapon to use a bow. It's reasonable to assume that LW keeps his weapons in sheathes/scabbards when not using them.
Despite what it says in the books, I doubt LW carries his weapons in his hands all the way through his adventures.
Other than that, no worries.
-GB
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Post by North Star on Sept 30, 2004 12:14:56 GMT
Except for Book 5 when you lose *everything*, I always assume I keep Special Items (and Special Weapons) unless told otherwise. This is fairly barmy though, when the guards (or whoever) take your mace and bow and leave behind Helshezag, the Warhammer, the Sommerswerd... NS.
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Post by Wayan on Sept 30, 2004 12:40:51 GMT
Except for Book 5 when you lose *everything*, I always assume I keep Special Items (and Special Weapons) unless told otherwise. This is fairly barmy though, when the guards (or whoever) take your mace and bow and leave behind Helshezag, the Warhammer, the Sommerswerd... NS. See in my first time through I always assumed I lost all weapons (special item ones as well). As I also Beleived Sommerswerd was to be carried in my Hand, it would leave me if captured weaponless. Till I found my weapons or picked up another weapon. I always thought this way as it gives you details of what you need to do in combat if unarmed, and up until points of being disarmed.. I'd never been unarmed so thought these sections were why that was included. I must have been wrong. Gee those guards can't be too bright.
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columbob
Kai Lord
Up the Irons!
Posts: 161
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Post by columbob on Sept 30, 2004 12:47:53 GMT
Except for Book 5 when you lose *everything*, I always assume I keep Special Items (and Special Weapons) unless told otherwise. This is fairly barmy though, when the guards (or whoever) take your mace and bow and leave behind Helshezag, the Warhammer, the Sommerswerd... NS. A weapon is still a weapon, whether it's stored in the "weapons" or "special items" section of the character sheet. So even if it's not the letter of the rule, you should go with what feels right, i.e. what's intended in the rules.
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Post by Ghost Bear on Sept 30, 2004 18:26:05 GMT
See Section 300 of Dawn of the Dragons. It asks if you have the Sommerswerd. Your weapons have already been taken by the guards. So it's obvious that you're not supposed to delete the sword if you lose your weapons.
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