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Post by Zero on Jun 17, 2010 14:34:26 GMT
All,
The LWMP gamebook seems to be garnering a fairly positive reaction around the boards. I love the heck out of LW, but my usual preferences for fiction and gaming tend toward more modern or near-future settings. Having an odd bout of inspiration, I was wondering if there was any interest in my attempting to adapt the LWMP rules to the Freeway Warrior setting.
There are a couple of interesting design challenges, such as the guns and skill system; not having purchased the LWMP book yet, I'm not positive how it handles ranged combat, but some significant modification may be necessary to get the firearms out of the realm of "instant-kill or nothing" that shows up at least in FW1.
Any thoughts?
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Post by askhati on Jun 20, 2010 18:00:23 GMT
I'll give it a thought or two.
As for insta-kills: you could split health in areas - arms, legs, torso, head - and then deal damage to each limb (think "Deus Ex" system). Once more than two limbs are gone, you bleed to death. Bandages stop bleeding, splints reduce movement penalties from broken limbs, etc.
Any ideas on your side, Zero? I'm not too familiar with FW to be honest, will have to read it again to give a proper response.
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Post by Zipp on Jun 20, 2010 19:14:12 GMT
You really WOULDNT have to change the insta-kill sections. That's part of Freeway Warrior's charm. What with limited ammo and gun supplies, guns become a sort've "all-or-nothing" weapon that hardly takes away from the fun of the books. And, don't forget, players can be on the receiving end of the same amount of danger!
Askhati's idea is a fine, one, though. Just make a seperate table that you roll for when you use shooting weapons. Rolling a 1-2 is a miss... a 3 or 4 is one of the legs, a 5 or 6 one of the arms, a 7 or 8 or 9 the body, and a 10 the head and an instant kill if they aren't wearing head gear.
That table could have DC additions as decided by the GM. So, minuses to the shooting roll based on the situation, basically. You could also allow players to choose any number lower than the one they rolled, in case they want to disable and not kill their opponent.
The LWMP book uses ranged combat as normal combat, but without the possibility of the shooter getting hurt. In my game, I adjust that so that 1's are always misses and 0's always instant kills, regardless of damage dealt.
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Post by pi4t on Jun 20, 2010 19:47:38 GMT
How about choosing where to aim, with different modifiers and damages depending on where you choose?
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Post by askhati on Jun 21, 2010 7:49:27 GMT
...in which case it starts becoming Classic BattleTech - take a regular shot and hit a random location, or take a targetted shot (at a -4CS penalty) and try to hit the targetted location.
Problem is, the more complicated combat becomes, the more complicated each enemy becomes to present to the player(s). In LW, your opponent has two stats that matter: CS and EN. For FW, this might increase alot: health, melee weapon, ranged weapon, ammunition, armour...
Wait, that is actually not too bad. You could give each guy a small stats line like in WH40k, and then run your own stats line against it.
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Post by Zero on Jun 21, 2010 13:19:03 GMT
I was thinking, if we were going to keep things simple, giving enemies a set of simple stats: CCS/END (Armor just adds to END as usual), Shooting and Stealth skills (maybe Perception as well). To keep everything player-rolled, we assume the enemies roll a 5 every time on their Shooting and Stealth checks.
Now, to determine ranged combat hits, in the style of FW, have the player roll Shooting vs. the target's Stealth total (5 + Stealth skill); beat it and you hit and deal damage. The enemy's shots work the same only they have a static Shooting score against your Stealth roll. Close combat will work per LWMP, only with the added modification of the character's weapon (remember that close-combat weapons in FW add to your CCS stat).
I'm also entertaining the thought of having modifiers for range -- a machine pistol is easier to hit with at all ranges, but the pistol and MP are worthless at long range; the shotgun is only good at short range, and the rifle is bad at short range because it's hard to bring to bear. Other weapons are also a possibility -- anyone ever wanted to steal that stupid sniper's AK-47?
I'm not fond of the idea of masses of tables for hit locations and things like that, but Zipp does have a point that guns having that possibility for lethality suits the setting well. Maybe give the guns a constant power (9mm pistol = 6, 7.62 rifle = 10, just to pull numbers out), and have a hit result table that modifies it? 1-2 = half damage, 3-7 = normal damage, 8-9 = double damage, 0 = lethal or some such. Or we could go by the margin of success to remove a roll and make the Shooting roll the sole arbiter of skill -- still make 0's on the roll lethal, but have you do half damage on a margin of 1-2, normal on a margin on 3-5, double past that?
My biggest fear with greatly expanded shooting mechanics is that it takes away from the "quick and dirty" feel of LW-style combat. I'd like to keep it as simple as possible while still giving the gunplay some tactical depth, and staying true to the feel of the books.
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Post by askhati on Jun 22, 2010 10:03:43 GMT
Alright, some more thoughts:
Character class: Interstate Survivor (based on Cal Phoenix) Survival Skills: - Driving - Shooting - Fieldcraft - Stealth - Perception
Skill points: 3 base points per skill, +4 points per level to split per player choice
Close Combat Skill (CCS): 10 + RNT Endurance (EN): 20 + RNT
Hit locations: When taking damage, pick a number from the RNT to determine where the damage was dealth (for melee or ranged attacks).
0: Head - take 3 points extra damage if Ranged attack 1: Chest - take 2 points extra damage if Melee, or from behind 2: Stomach - take 1 point extra damage 3: Groin - take 2 points extra damage 4: Left Arm - take -1 penalty on Melee or Ranged attacks the next round 5: Right Arm - same as Left Arm 6: Left Upper Leg - take -1 movement penalty for the next round 7: Right Upper Leg - same as Left Upper Leg 8: Left Lower Leg - take 1 point less damage from Ranged, 2 points less from Melee 9: Right Lower Leg - same as Left Lower Leg
Character's EN score is not split by location, but the damage dealt will be modified depending on where it struck the character - Headshots deal more damage, while limbs take less damage.
More later.
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Post by Zero on Jun 22, 2010 13:06:59 GMT
Yeah, that's what I was thinking with respect to skills and such, Askhati. Hit locations for melee attacks -- that's something I hadn't considered. Though I'm not sure what a "-1 movement penalty" would entail. Considering how things like arm damage in LW and FW decreased your CCS (since your mobility or tactical options were reduced -- cf. limbdeath), perhaps leg/arm hits should reduce CCS temporarily/permanently until healed?
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Post by askhati on Jun 22, 2010 14:03:54 GMT
Well, those hit locations would apply for Ranged attacks as well. A scattergun (e.g. shotgun) would then hit two neighbouring locations - e.g. Left Arm and Chest, or Groin and Right Upper Leg - while a repeating gun (e.g. SMG, AK-47) would hit the same location twice, which would double any applicable penalties from that location.
A -1 movement penalty would affect Stealth - but other classes might have a different Survival Skill governing movement and dexterity, hence the broader use of the expression "movement penalty".
Ideas for other classes: - Bike Ganger - Minuteman (think Rambo meets Mad Max) - HAVOC Agent
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Post by Zero on Jun 22, 2010 14:17:28 GMT
Hmm, that's not bad. I'm tempted to make damage more variable though, if we do indeed go with hit locations, as part of the feel of FW was its lethality and constant fear. Truthfully, a headshot ought to be lethal, or at least very, very damaging, for example (double damage might do it -- 12 power from a shotgun becomes 24, say).
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Post by askhati on Jun 22, 2010 14:32:52 GMT
Of course, but for that we would first need to work out damage scales for the Ranged weapons. I'll have a ponder about it in traffic today, the road-rage should be inspirational for this type of thing!
*waves biker chain around head before charging out of office*
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Post by Zero on Jun 22, 2010 15:11:01 GMT
My original thought was:
Small revolver (.38 special): 6 Small auto (9mm): 7 Large pistol/revolver (.40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 magnum): 8 Assault rifle/heavy revolver (.44 magnum, 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm): 9 Heavy rifle (7.62x51mm): 10 Shotgun (12-ga): 12
And then modifiers to Shooting rolls:
Ranges are CC (within melee range), Short, Medium, Long.
CQC/Short/Med/Long Pistol +0/+0/-1/-4 Shotgun -2/+2/-1/-4 Rifle -4/+0/+0/+0
All full-auto attacks gain +2, but use six rounds. Additional circumstancial modifiers apply for cover, prone targets, etc.
It's hard to use longarms when someone is two feet away from you and can knock it out of the way, hence the penalties. Guns provide no bonus to CCS in melee combat, and attacking someone in CC who fired a gun in the previous round means you take no damage from the Results Table.
And armor:
Raider Armor (leather/steel): END +2 Class IIa Armor (concealable vest): END +2 Class II Armor (light vest): END +4 Class III Armor (standard duty vest): END +6, Stealth -1 Class IV Armor (riot gear, front-line soldier): END +10, Stealth -2 Helmet: END +2, negate one instakill from headshot.
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Post by askhati on Jun 23, 2010 9:27:39 GMT
Hmm.
So to kill someone, you need 4x 9mm shots = 3x Assault Rifle shots (which fires 6 per burst...) = 3x Rifle shots = 3x Shotgun shots. We will need to change the Hit Location damage modifiers for that.
As for the armour - how about a damage reduction instead of a simple once-off EN boost? After all, armour keeps on protecting you for a while - not just for one shot, as a simple EN boost would suggest.
Hmm. Suggestion: when an attack hits a location, you calculate the full EN damage that would have been taken (depends on weapon, location hit, etc) - and then subtract the EN modifier that the armour gives for that location to get the final damage dealt, subject to a minimum of 1 EN damage per armour-reduced attack.
E.g. you get hit by a shotgun, and the shot hits your Groin and Stomach: Base Damage dealt = 12 (base Shotgun) +2 (Groin) +1 (Stomach) = 15 Armour worn = Class III Vest = 6 EN EN Damage received = 15 (base) -6 (armour) = 9 EN lost
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Post by Zero on Jun 24, 2010 13:39:21 GMT
If we go damage reduction rather than pure EP bonus, we'd have to modify the strength of armor; otherwise a lot of guns would have no effect against a heavy vest. We can get back to that, but I want to address the point Zipp made about firearm lethality.
If we want to go lethal potential for guns (and that's pretty much how it works in FW -- lose 4-8 END or just die), but still keep the concept of a hit location table, we could go this route:
0: Head - instant kill if not protected; otherwise, normal damage and helmet is destroyed 1-2: Chest - double damage 3: Stomach - normal damage 4: Groin - double damage 5-6: Arm - half damage, CCS -2/Shooting -1 7-8: Upper Leg - normal damage, Stealth -1 9: Right Upper Leg - half damage
If we do a weighted average based on probability, assuming our target is wearing a helmet, you get:
3x double damage = 0.6 4x normal damage = 0.4 3x half damage = 0.15
Average damage goes up a teeny bit (15%), but it has more variance. This comes across to me as more realistic; the true arbiter in lethal versus nuisance hits is usually brain damage and hydrostatic shock to vital organs. One good hit can end the fight.
ex. Jethro shoots a Clansman with a .45 pistol (power 8). He has five points in Shooting, and the target's Stealth total is 8. (not particularly fast). Jet rolls a 7 for (7+5 = 12), a hit; then a 1 for hit location, resulting in a chest shot and double damage to the clansman. 8 x 2 = 16 END lost. What you get for messing with a Freeway Warrior.
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Post by askhati on Jun 24, 2010 14:41:19 GMT
Umm, you just need to fix your Hit table: Chest should be only on a '1', and then the Lower Legs should be on '8' or '9'.
Alternatively, if you want more chest hits, you can keep it as is and simply lump both Lower Legs into a single location.
Other than that, the damage multipliers seem alright. I would maybe change the head's multiplier to 3x, since a flesh wound from a pistol might not necessarily kill you immediately, whereas any other weapon would probably result in an insta-kill. The best way to test them would be to run a game...
Also, how do you feel about changing the multipliers for melee damage? Stabbing someone in the face with a Flick Knife (2) will not necessarily kill them immediately, will it? (have never tried it, so pardon my ignorance)
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