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Post by Zero on Jul 3, 2010 18:45:11 GMT
Damn, Zipp, you don't mess around. I'm not in a convenient spot to look at the manual right now, so I'll see what I can shuffle around later. But all of these suggestions are solid. I'll see about getting this stuff put together when I get a chance.
I neglected armor damage mainly because I thought it might overcomplicate things, but the idea that the armor does take a beating is valid. Keeping things light, maybe roll RNT when your armor gets hit, and 0 means it loses 1 Protection Value permanently?
Once we get the manual in a playtestable state, I'd love for you to provide some examples and flavor. I'd definitely give you a coauthor credit like I did askahti.
Glad this little project is really taking off!
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Post by Zipp on Jul 3, 2010 19:22:13 GMT
I'll put the effort in if I think it's worth it. I really think this little game could take off. I can't see Joe saying no to letting it be published in Signs and Portents if nowhere else, and maybe Mongoose will okay it for a print publication. If not, then there's nothing stopping us from sharing it as a fan download and getting some good games in at RPOL.
I've already got an idea for a basic adventure. I think this game, with it's deadliness, will be great for one-shot campaigns.
As for armour, I like that idea. Simple. But maybe the number should be 1-3? I think armour would break down faster than that.
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Post by Zero on Jul 6, 2010 14:57:02 GMT
I assume you noticed this already, Zipp, but the automatic weapons (currently) have a Power 3 points higher than normal. Rolling against the Hit Location table twice (a recurring theme -- I recall askahti brought up the concept earlier in the thread, but before the table had results like "half damage" or "double damage") makes it more likely that a heavy-damage result could occur. I think doubling this up with the +3 bonus to Power makes automatic weapons pretty much murder machines; that said, I'm weighing three balancing options.
1) Leave everything as is 2) Add the Hit Location reroll, but remove the +3 Power bonus (and reduce the starting ammo for machine pistols/SMGs to 12-Power, which is the same number of rounds as before) 3) Add the Hit Location reroll, leave the Power bonus alone, but don't let player characters take machine pistols/SMGs at character creation.
***
Also, I'm having a look at the "closing the distance" notion you had, and had an idea for codifying range to enemies other than just arbitrarily choosing a category. The characters start at a distance to the enemies, but can then adjust the range of combat either up or down one step by making Stealth vs. Perception tests. Failure means they're stopped, but only if the enemy moves, or otherwise interrupts them with environmental effects or suppressive fire (uses one/six shots). The enemies can adjust range as well via the same process, only it's player Perception vs. enemy's Stealth score instead.
Close Combat <--> Short <--> Medium <--> Long
Escape from combat is handled the same way, except an appropriate distance is needed (Long, probably, for open areas, but Short indoors or with nearby cover like buildings or a tunnel); if the enemies are able to give chase, they probably will attempt to do so. This might yield Stealth vs. Stealth or Driving vs. Driving in a chase scene.
Thoughts from the crowd?
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Post by Zipp on Jul 6, 2010 18:54:35 GMT
I don't think automatic weapons should have both bonuses. Thinking over it, the +3 power makes more sense. Or maybe, instead of the +3 power, these guns can hit twice in a single round, allowing the player to make two attacks at long range? Or maybe, instead of rerolling the location die, a player with an automatic weapon can reroll their shooting die if they miss on the first roll? That seems to simulate an automatic weapon nicely.
As for range, I wouldn't let it get too complicated; one of the trickiest things about long range combat is that enemies get to shoot at you in their own round, while normally they don't get their own round for actions. I'm thinking to help this, close range combat should all be completed after long range combat. This way you don't get into confusion when players are in both long range and close combat situations. I've added in phases below and a perception score for enemies. They may need a driving score, too, for opposed driving tests.
That would look like this, in the rules...
A Single Combat Round Long Range Phase - all players and enemies who have long range weapons and wish to use them pick valid targets (a valid target is anyone not completely obscured by cover). - players roll their attacks one at a time; enemies then do the same; damage is dealt simultaneously
Movement Phase - A player can choose to move closer to or further away from an enemy by making a stealth roll, modified by any cover or items. If this roll exceeds the enemy's perception score, the player can close or further their distance by one range. - An enemy can try to move closer to or further away from a player. The player gets to make a perception roll. If it beats the enemy's stealth score, the attempt is not successful. - if a player or enemy moves beyond long range, they have escaped.
*some situations won't allow for all ranges or for escape to be utilized. For instance, in a general store, the furthest range might be short, and going beyond this range would mean escape. Or, an enemy might be blocking the door, so escape is impossible. Furthermore, depending on the position of enemies, no range other than close might be available in that situation.
Close Combat phase - players, not enemies, engage in close combat with their choosen targets, obeying all close combat rules. If the player or enemy has engaged in long range combat this round, then there are penalties and bonuses to the rolls. - a player CAN engage in both long range combat and close range combat in a single round of combat.
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Post by Zero on Jul 6, 2010 19:24:31 GMT
Proving that great minds think alike, I actually already modified the rulebook to incorporate phased combat, with two differences -- first, I had all action involving a player happening at once, rather than global phases (i.e. Player A shoots, player A attacks, player B shoots, player A moves, player B attacks, player B moves, instead of Player A shoots, Player B shoots, Player A moves, etc.) I also had movement as the *last* phase, after Close Combat. The idea behind that being that the player couldn't, in the same round, engage an enemy in missile combat at Short, close to Close Combat range, and then attack in Close Combat immediately; there's a one-round time lapse.
Here's what I had, verbatim except for formatting, for a Combat Timing Overview:
* Resolve each player’s turn, and the actions of enemies engaging them. Turns occur in descending order of Perception scores, with Random Number results breaking ties. 1. Missile combat between Survivor and enemies. Enemies attacking the Survivor fire. 2. Close Combat. Use Close Combat Results table to determine damage inflicted. 3. Other actions by the Survivor, if taken in lieu of an attack, are resolved. 4. Player may attempt to adjust range or escape combat.
* Resolve enemy actions other than attacks. 1. Enemies may use backpack items or perform non-attack actions. 2. Enemies may attempt to adjust range or escape combat.
I can see how global phases are less confusing, while whole player turns (as I presented) keep the action simpler for the purposes of online RP. Decisions, decisions...
--
Currently, I have characters unable to deal damage in close combat if they fire a missile weapon; the option to disarm characters in close combat if they fire is there in the original version of the rules as well. If the idea of allowing the Survivors to deal damage in close combat while "simultaneously" firing a missile weapon is reasonable, they definitely should suffer a -4 to CCS or similar. Is that what you had in mind?
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Post by Zipp on Jul 6, 2010 19:56:10 GMT
I can see how doing movement after close combat makes sense. In my mind I was picturing it as being really cool to shoot, run forward, and then deck a guy, thus putting movement in between the actions. But either way works, really. The difference is that my way breaks it down into non-simultaneous actions while yours keeps the simultaneous feel.
Regardless of where movement ends up in the order, I think phases are the way to go. I believe that you want to design this as if it will be published and presented to a live gaming audience. Inevitably, people who adapt it to online play will find their own ways of speeding things up. For instance, I would probably ask players for several rounds' worth of actions and then fill in gaps based on those actions. A series of simple "if... then..." statements.
But I digress. Clarity is always important and I think presenting things in phases is the most clear way to show how combat works. Otherwise, you are going to get people confused when they start to think about moving between ranges and figuring out the timing with close quarters and long range combat.
As for being able to shoot when in close combat, again it depends on your vision for combat. With my order of phases, the action is non-simultaneous. With yours, it is and doing everything at once doesn't make as much sense. Once you decide on which of these is more amiable to you, I can move on to suggest some ways to do close quarters combat at the same time as long range.
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Post by Zipp on Jul 6, 2010 20:04:10 GMT
To break this down even further, I was considering the various effects that our different phases might have.
In my version, you fire guns, move, and then can engage in close quarters combat. It provides a faster paced-combat with more action. Penalties would be given to those who fire and also melee in the same round.
In your version, you fire or engage in close combat, and then move. This provides a more tactical situation, as shooters have to be kept out of close range combat. It's a little trickier with the rules, since you have to explain that survivors still "engage" during the close combat and roll as if attacking... but won't do any damage and will just take damage.
Another way around all the confusion is to use my phasing order but declare that if you are in any close quarters combat at the end of a round, you cannot engage in long range combat at the beginning of next round. In this case, take out close quarters statistics for guns.
That might be the least confusing and most streamlined way to go.
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Post by Zero on Jul 6, 2010 22:09:43 GMT
I threw together a sample combat -- I used phased combat, with my turn order (Action, Missile, Close, Move). Let me know how this seems to play.
Dramatis Personae:
Jet Rawlings Characteristics: CLOSE COMBAT SKILL 15, ENDURANCE 25 Skills: Driving 3, Shooting 5, Fieldcraft 3, Stealth 4, Perception 4 Weapons: Hunting Knife (2), M1911A1 (pistol, .45, power 8)
George Swift Characteristics: CLOSE COMBAT SKILL 14, ENDURANCE 27 Skills: Driving 5, Shooting 3, Fieldcraft 3, Stealth 4, Perception 4 Weapons: Crowbar (2), Mossberg 500 (shotgun, 12-ga, power 10)
Example Combat
George Swift is driving his souped-up roadster down I-70, with Jet riding shotgun. The road is blocked up ahead; an overturned tour bus has blocked all four westbound lanes. The roadster pulls to a halt, and the two Survivors exit the vehicle, and begin puzzling how to move it or go around, when out of the bus pile three gangsters! The bus is 25 yards away, so the combat begins at Short range.
The foes each have CLOSE COMBAT SKILL 16, ENDURANCE 20, Shooting 7, Stealth 9, Perception 8.
Jet and George both have a Perception skill total of 4, so they each choose a Random Number. Jet gets a 3, while George gets a 6. George will act first in each phase.
Turn 1, Action Phase Jet and George are both ready for combat; their weapons’ magazines are mostly full, and neither possesses any items that will make things any easier, so neither declares an action. One of the thugs reaches into his pocket and pulls out some Caltrops, scattering them in front of the door of the bus. The gangsters must be guarding something, and don’t want it stolen in the scuffle.
Missile Combat Phase Jet draws his M1911A1 and levels it at the closest thug. He gets a 5 for his shot. With a Shooting total of 5, that makes 10, which beats the thug’s Stealth score of 9, a hit. Amusingly, he gets another 5 on the Hit Location table, hitting his foe in the Arm for half damage – half of 8 means 4 points of ENDURANCE loss. The thug he fired at doesn’t possess a missile weapon, so Jet’s safe.
George takes out his Mossberg 500 and engages the only thug currently brandishing a gun; he gets a +2 bonus to his Shooting total for being within Short range, and gets a 7 for his shot – having three points in the Shooting skill, that’s a total of 12, another hit! A roll of 3 for Hit Location means the gangster is hit in the midsection for normal damage, but that’s still a painful 10 points of ENDURANCE loss. Unfortunately, the foe’s rifle is pointed at George and he presses his attack! George unfortunately gets a 2 for his Stealth test, totaling only 6, and the foe’s 7 in Shooting makes that a hit. George grits his teeth and draws against the Hit Location table: 8, the Upper Leg. The foe, packing a Mini-14, deals 9 points of ENDURANCE damage to George, leaving him 18 ENDURANCE to spare.
Close Combat Phase As no characters are within Close Combat range of each other, nothing happens.
Movement Phase “Jet, get the guy with the rifle!” George cries out, cradling the flesh wound in his side. Jet is only happy to oblige; no one messes with his friends and gets away with it. Jet makes his Stealth test – a 5 plus Jet’s 4 in Stealth means he gets a 9, which beats the thug’s 8 Perception score. He can advance to Close range without any difficulty. George wants to move up as well, so that the enemy doesn’t triple-team Jet. A Stealth test of 7 plus his 4 points yields 11, plenty to make his charge.
Turn 1 Results Jet: 25/25 George: 18/27 Thugs: 20, 16, 10/20
Turn 2, Action Phase The caltrop man, satisfied it’ll be tough for the invaders to enter the bus, picks up his Mini-Uzi and gets ready to fight. Since everyone else is busy in combat, no one takes an action this round.
Missile Combat Phase Neither player Survivor engages with a firearm, being in Close range with two foes. The rifleman is panicked. He’s hurt bad, and he’s been surrounded. Lacking any better presence of mind, he raises his rifle to fire at the man bearing down on him with a crowbar. With a Shooting score of only 3 now, the thug can’t possibly hit! George doesn’t bother to roll Stealth. However, the caltrop man’s Uzi is now pointed at Jet. Since the Survivors can’t get to him in close combat, the GM rules he’s still at Short range. He fires – but Jet’s Stealth roll of 10 (6 plus 4) means that the burst goes wide.
Close Combat Phase The presence of two Survivors at the fore has split the enemy party up – the man with the Uzi is stuck in the bus at Short range, and doesn’t participate. Jet goes after the rifleman as promised, while George deals with the remaining thug.
Now it’s time for revenge. Having fired a gun in close combat, the rifleman can’t deal damage. Jet goes after him first – with a CLOSE COMBAT SKILL of 17 including his Hunting Knife, the Combat Ratio is +2. The Random Number Table grants its blessing – a 0! Jet’s player entertains the thought of liberating the man of his rifle, but 8 damage is hard to pass up. He opts to deal damage as normal. Turns out the rifle shot doesn’t matter – the thug wouldn’t have dealt any damage anyway!
George engages the other foe. A CLOSE COMBAT SKILL of 16 with a Crowbar makes a Combat Ratio of +1. George is unlucky again – a 1 means he suffers 4 ENDURANCE loss to his foe’s 3.
Movement Phase This Close Combat is looking ugly for the rifleman – he’s out of options, and running out of ENDURANCE, with a mere two points! He turns tail and runs; Jet picks a 0 for Perception, so the rifleman manages to slip out of his grasp, moving to Short range, as George is busy with the other thug and can’t help. The Uzi wielder is content with his position at Short range and doesn’t move.
Turn 2 Results Jet: 25/25 George: 14/27 Thugs: 20, 13, 2/20
Turn 3, Action Phase No one has any further unusual actions to take. Nothing happens during the Action Phase.
Missile Combat Phase The Uzi wielder takes another shot – this time at Jet. Jet checks Stealth – another zero! A total of 4 means he’s hit – thankfully, a 5 for an Arm hit and only 5 damage. The Rifleman shoots back from Short range – this time George gets a 7, for a Stealth test of 11, a miss. They both want those gunmen down, and fast.
Close Combat Phase Now it’s two-on-one. Jet swings first: this time, a 7 on the Close Combat Results table yields 6 damage to the enemy, and one ENDURANCE lost for himself. George’s follow-up, with the +2 CLOSE COMBAT SKILL bonus for a Combat Ratio of 3, is a 9, inflicting 5 further damage to George’s 1. Movement Phase The rifleman attempts to gain further distance; since the gangster outside the bus is hanging on with 2 ENDURANCE himself, the Survivors don’t risk suppressive fire and let him go. He’s now at Medium range. The remaining thug is out for blood and doesn’t move. George wants to gain some distance though, and finish that prick off, so he tries to move forward and keep the Rifleman at Short range – but a 5 total for Stealth (1 plus 4) means the rifleman fires a warning shot, stopping him in his tracks. The Uzi man is still stuck.
Turn 3 Results Jet: 19/25 George: 13/27 Thugs: 20, 2, 2/20
Turn 4, Action Phase
George can’t close, but he has one ace in his sleeve – a road flare. That may provide sufficient cover against the rifle fire! He pulls it out and tosses it – a dangerous gambit, but one that may save him in the end.
Missile Combat Phase Jet’s still facing the thug toe to toe; he can’t afford to pull out his pistol. The rifleman wants to fire at George, but the smokescreen makes things more difficult. The GM rules that George isn’t distracted, so the shot would have a score of a mere 3! He throws up his hands and slings his rifle, hoping to get out of range and patch himself up. The Uzi man fires one more burst at Jet – Jet’s Stealth of 12 keeps it at bay. The Uzi clicks empty – the thug drops it and takes cover.
Close Combat Phase Jet takes one more swing – a 9 means he’s lost one more ENDURANCE point, but the guy goes down. George’s target is gone, so he doesn’t engage.
Movement Phase There’s no point in chasing the rifleman down. Jet lets him go to Long range, to escape the following round. Neither of the Survivors wants to deal with the caltrops, but it ends up being a moot point, as the gunman left inside the bus surrenders, out of ammo and down two buddies, one dead and one running for the hills.
Turn 4 Results Jet: 18/25 George: 13/25 Thugs: 20, dead, 2/20
Combat concludes – there should be plenty of useful information to glean out of the punk in the bus. Shame his Uzi is empty, because it could have come in handy, but maybe the Survivors might end up with more to show for their troubles. George takes a moment to patch up his wounds with his Medi-kit before taking the tool to task.
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Post by Zipp on Jul 6, 2010 22:53:35 GMT
That played out pretty well! I like the addition of an action phase for tossing grenades, flares, caltrops, and the like. I think med-kits could be restricted, seems like they would take longer to use.
I've been trying to picture this with the option to fire and do close range in a single turn and I don't like it as much. I like the tactical barriers this style presents the players with.
Question: pistols can still be used at close range without any loss to the shooting score, right? Just making sure I understand it correctly.
Aside from that, the only thing that I'm curious about is this line:
The rifleman attempts to gain further distance; since the gangster outside the bus is hanging on with 2 ENDURANCE himself, the Survivors don’t risk suppressive fire and let him go. He’s now at Medium range. The remaining thug is out for blood and doesn’t move. George wants to gain some distance though, and finish that prick off, so he tries to move forward and keep the Rifleman at Short range – but a 5 total for Stealth (1 plus 4) means the rifleman fires a warning shot, stopping him in his tracks. The Uzi man is still stuck.
I don't know what you mean by suppressive fire. Also, the rifleman firing a warning shot... I think this is a GM description but it's confusing in an example since there are rules around ammo expenditure.
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Post by Zero on Jul 6, 2010 22:56:02 GMT
Oh! The text is there like it appears in the book. The way I had the rules written, you can stop someone from moving into or out of range, but you either have to move yourself to maintain that range, or have a way to convince them-- physically grabbing them in close combat, with environmental effects, or using suppressive fire (costs you one or six shots as normal for a firearm attack, but with no further effect). Since the thug already moved, he can't move again that turn.
And yes, pistols don't get a range penalty, but you still deal no damage in close combat.
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Post by Zipp on Jul 6, 2010 23:39:45 GMT
What book? The rules as I have them don't mention anything about suppresive fire.
To clarify on the pistol: you can deal damage to enemies with it in close quarters, but during the long range phase, correct? And then you can't attack during the melee phase. So I can shoot someone who is standing right next to me, who will (on his turn) attack me in close range?
Separate note, but still a little confusing explaining that you have to "engage" enemies in close range, even if you can't deal damage to them.
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Post by Zero on Jul 7, 2010 0:42:25 GMT
D'oh! Sorry, miscommunication. The version I have now, with the combat phases and all, has that information. I will upload an updated version soon.
Fair cop on the "engaging without dealing damage" bit; though I like the rules as they stand, the concept is a little confusing. Is there a better way to word it, or should we just bite and go -4 CCS for firing a gun?
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Post by Zipp on Jul 7, 2010 3:57:40 GMT
Yeah, let's go ahead and give them the CS penalty. That just makes more sense. It actually will end up in them getting hurt MORE than otherwise, too, which is good because it simulates the difficulties of firing a gun while trying to protect yourself better.
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Post by Zero on Jul 7, 2010 14:59:39 GMT
I've uploaded the current version of the FWMP rules. All, feel free to review and let me know if any further changes to the rules might help. Attachments:
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Post by Zipp on Jul 7, 2010 15:01:31 GMT
I'll read them over. Once I think it's cohesive enough to run a game, I'll get some interest together.
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