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Post by norshire on Jul 13, 2010 0:36:17 GMT
Pardon the pun. After trying about a dozen times to run Books 1-5 through Hardcore, I've come to the conclusion that it's a waste of time. No matter what I do, it all comes down to "spend a lot of time clicking through the same $!%&ing sections, hoping that THIS time you'll roll enough 8s, 9s, and 0s to beat all those unavoidable -4 and -5 combats"
Bleh. I started out thinking that it would be cool to get a hardcore HOF entry. Now I wonder why I ever bothered.
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Post by Dave on Jul 13, 2010 4:13:19 GMT
Sorry you think Hardcore is waste - it's actually not bad if you go for the 17/23 skill set. The lowest CS I've gone with is 14, and I made it through okay.
If you try different combinations of skills/disicplines, you may find that you are able to choose a different route, or will fare better/worse than other sets of skills. Don't give up yet! Try making choices that you wouldn't normally make. That might make all the difference!
But don't worry if hardcore isn't your thing... In the next version, there is a new style of play called "Prodigy", where you can earn all sorts of awards (like right now there are about 70). It adds incredible fun replay value to the game. E.g. play book 1 through with no combats, then play through with at least 8 combats, then play through visiting the most dangerous places and come out alive... Nice!
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Post by mckinstry on Jul 13, 2010 11:12:37 GMT
I never bothered even trying hardcore Prefer to just enjoy the experience without knowing all the secrets of the game.
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Post by jellyfish on Jul 13, 2010 13:57:23 GMT
"hardcore" is for hardcore fans... who tend to have played through the book multiple times in different paths and know everything about the book (i.e., most regular posters on Project Aon). Knowing exactly which disciplines are needed on which paths makes it quite easy to pick a survivable track through each book. Think of it as, these guys have an extra discipline, "Seventh Sense", or perfect future sight. Not recommended for first timers or if you're revisiting after 20 years. Good fun otherwise, I found the fact that you can choose your CS, and the fact that some non-Swerd weapons give CS bonuses, makes it easier and more fun than normal mode.
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Post by Phone Wolf on Jul 13, 2010 17:14:46 GMT
No matter what I do, it all comes down to "spend a lot of time clicking through the same $!%&ing sections, hoping that THIS time you'll roll enough 8s, 9s, and 0s to beat all those unavoidable -4 and -5 combats" Even with a starting Combat Skill of 10, you need never fight a combat with a Combat Ratio below about -2 or so. But to make that happen, you need to be very familiar with the different routes through the five books, and the ways in which different Discipline choices affect those routes. If you don't have that familiarity, why, just play the books however you like and enjoy yourself until you do!
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Post by norshire on Jul 14, 2010 2:54:08 GMT
Even with a starting Combat Skill of 10, you need never fight a combat with a Combat Ratio below about -2 or so. But to make that happen, you need to be very familiar with the different routes through the five books, and the ways in which different Discipline choices affect those routes. If you don't have that familiarity, why, just play the books however you like and enjoy yourself until you do! This actually isn't true. Starting stats of 10/20, taking the "best" path through Book 1 ... the first unavoidable combat is a Combat Ratio of -7 (-5 if I take Weaponskill...it's the Burrowcrawler). Even that isn't too bad; it's not TOO many sections to re-click through to get to that for another try. Getting past that...it's a luck roll with Camouflage to avoid fighting a 15/24 Giak + Doomwolf (which will kill a 10/20 Kai Lord about 90% of the time, especially after the damage from the Burrowcrawler!). Manage to get past that, and you're into Book 2. Pray for good rolls vs. the 16/25 Harbor Thugs, and pray again that you don't have to fight anyone during the sea voyage. If I get that far, it's another tough fight vs. Parsion (though I suppose I could gank poor Halvorc for an easier fight...seems unsporting though). So, on one golden play-through, I manage to beat Book 2. I get into Book 3 and make it aaaalll the way to Ikaya, search the floor, and ... promptly die fighting the Frostwyrm. I already had a Blue Stone Triangle, too I guess I should have said this up-front, but I'm basically trying to match Kamikaze Thompson's no-healing, low-stats, no-restarts run. I'm almost to the point where I don't think it's actually possible due to the sheer number of good RNG picks it needs. And no, Jellyfish, the problem is *not* that I haven't played the books before. I know the books well enough to have optimal paths through all 5 Kai books planned...if only I could get past the &!%$ing unavoidable combats. Edit: Dave, Prodigy mode sounds like a blast. I'm on the edge of my seat in anticipation!
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Post by jellyfish on Jul 14, 2010 16:51:21 GMT
I didn't realise you were doing a 10/20 no-healing no-deaths HC. Yeah, that's just too much, really, it becomes a bit ridiculous.
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Post by Dave on Jul 14, 2010 21:17:45 GMT
The next version of Seventh Sense will let you adjust your inital scores downward, all the way to 5/15 intial stats, for what kamikaze called "Ultimate difficulty". He quite possibly is the only one who will ever succesfully attempt it!
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Post by mckinstry on Jul 14, 2010 23:21:32 GMT
Wow, surely deserves a separate, legendary achievement in the hall of fame.
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Post by Phone Wolf on Jul 15, 2010 5:17:10 GMT
This actually isn't true. Starting stats of 10/20, taking the "best" path through Book 1 ... the first unavoidable combat is a Combat Ratio of -7 (-5 if I take Weaponskill...it's the Burrowcrawler). Even that isn't too bad; it's not TOO many sections to re-click through to get to that for another try. Getting past that...it's a luck roll with Camouflage to avoid fighting a 15/24 Giak + Doomwolf (which will kill a 10/20 Kai Lord about 90% of the time, especially after the damage from the Burrowcrawler!). Manage to get past that, and you're into Book 2. Pray for good rolls vs. the 16/25 Harbor Thugs, and pray again that you don't have to fight anyone during the sea voyage. If I get that far, it's another tough fight vs. Parsion (though I suppose I could gank poor Halvorc for an easier fight...seems unsporting though). So, on one golden play-through, I manage to beat Book 2. I get into Book 3 and make it aaaalll the way to Ikaya, search the floor, and ... promptly die fighting the Frostwyrm. I already had a Blue Stone Triangle, too It actually is quite true. Reconsider your route choice in Book 1. You don't have to fight the Burrowcrawler at all. You don't have to fight Giak + Doomwolf at all either, but if you want to for some reason, it's only CR -1 if you took Mindblast and Weaponskill, and managed to find 'your' Weapon. Truth be told, you don't have to get into a combat in Book 1 at all, but I'd kill the Madman just because he's easy (CS 11) and he nets you enough Gold Crowns to guarantee safe passage through Book 2. The Harbour Thugs combat at the beginning of Book 2 is CR 0 if you have Mindblast, a Shield, and your Weaponskill weapon -- and you only need to survive three rounds before you're out of there. There's no reason to take a chance against Parsion when Halvorc is such a pushover and you're going to lose all your Gold Crowns to the Noodnics in Tarnalin anyway. You can't afford to be worried about being sporting! ;D In Book 3, the Crystal Frostwyrm is CR -1 if you don't have Weaponskill with some flavor of Sword. If you got lucky on your Weaponskill roll, it's CR +1. You might die if you get unlucky with your rolls, of course; that's part of the challenge of it. But none of these fights are unfair.
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Post by Dave on Jul 16, 2010 2:23:33 GMT
Well, in the benefit of the OP, if he's trying to follow in kamikaze's footstep's, then he's not taking any CS-boosting disciplines, either. So, all of your -1,0,+1 combats are really down in the -5,-4,-3 range.
That said, you certainly can avoid all combat in the first book. And have minimal fights in the subsequent books. Using CS-booting weapons/items will certainly help in the toughest fights.
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Post by norshire on Jul 17, 2010 3:22:09 GMT
Book 1 - if you skip the fight with the Burrowcrawler, you skip meeting Banedon, and you also skip getting two +3 EP Laumspur meals. Those are hard to pass up (they almost guarantee full health going into Ragadorn in Book 2...if you live through Book 1). Point taken, though -- rethinking what was *mandatory* for Book 1 makes it a little easier to survive.
Also, the Giak + Doomwolf isn't 100% avoidable. If you take that path, you have a 50/50 chance of hiding *if* you have Camouflage.
Book 2...No Mindblast and no Weaponskill = CR -4 vs. the Harbor Thugs. It's rarely lethal, but you're screwed if you get attacked by a Drakkar on the Green Sceptre.
Book 3...true, Crystal Frostwyrm is only CR -1, but after previous fights in the book, I was too low on EP to survive. My path through the book was chosen to get the Firesphere without losing my Backpack (though maybe that's something I should skip...just like meeting Banedon).
Just, overall I was *really* surprised at how hard the combats end up being at 10/20 with no Healing or CS-boosting Disciplines. I didn't think it would be *quite* that nasty in terms of depending on good RNG results.
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Post by Phone Wolf on Jul 18, 2010 3:20:28 GMT
Well, 10/20 hardcore is already quite a challenge. If you're intentionally adding to that by refusing Healing, Weaponskill, and Mindblast, you can hardly complain that it's too hard, now, can you? ;D
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Post by Zipp on Jul 18, 2010 5:01:51 GMT
I'd like to point out that you can beat book 1 without getting into a single combat.
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Post by norshire on Jul 18, 2010 7:21:51 GMT
Ugh, why do people keep repeating that falsehood? There is no path that is 100% combat-free. The best you can do is funnel yourself to a section where, if you have Camouflage, you have a 50/50 chance of fighting a Giak + Doomwolf. See www.projectaon.org/en/xhtml/lw/01fftd/sect303.htm
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