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Post by Sol on Nov 16, 2004 13:46:15 GMT
The monk thing is a good point, but I have 2 more:
Aren't the children of Kai lords sent to the monostary to train? I think this is mentioned in Book 1. If yes, I would say the Kai can't be Celebate monks.
Secondly, Lone Wolf, as the Head of the Order can make any rules he wants! It's much easier when you are the only one / most powerful one!
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Post by Peregrine on Nov 16, 2004 15:46:51 GMT
Aren't the children of Kai lords sent to the monostary to train? I think this is mentioned in Book 1. If yes, I would say the Kai can't be Celebate monks. I've often wondered about that myself. As the Kai are originally introduced, it doesn't seem quite the same as they're later developed. Or maybe it's just me. Either way, I got the impression that the children of the general Sommlending nobility were sent to the Monastery as a matter of course, and trained by the monks. It didn't really fit with my existing impressions from later books, and I've since put some thought into various interpretations... but I'm getting off-topic. Anyway, we can get one literal thing from this: the children in question are sent to the Monastery. So it doesn't say anything about the Kai monks at the Monastery. Incidentally, I'm surprised at myself for not mentioning this before. Note that it says 'children', not 'sons'. I've gotten the impression from time to time that the Kai are all male, not the least reason being the term 'Kai Lords' (but compare 'Lords of Light', which includes Ishir). Is there anything definitive one way or the other? Dawn Light in Skull of Agarash has a fairly androgynous look to him/her... But what if Kai has something to say about it, eh? Lone Wolf's not quite up to the post-Supreme Master rank of 'Screw Kai! I'm in charge now!'
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Post by Zipp on Nov 16, 2004 22:31:15 GMT
Um, they aren't celibate. There are references to decendants of... and the brethren of... and so forth in the books.
Also, refering to the wonderful books of information, the RPG and the Companion, we see that the kai are never mentioned as being celibate.
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simkn
Kai Lord
Posts: 111
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Post by simkn on Nov 17, 2004 3:06:28 GMT
owww Um, they aren't celibate. There are references to decendants of... and the brethren of... and so forth in the books. Can you quote a specific passage that clearly states or implies that the Kai marry and have children? I, for one, don't remember seeing a specific reference to the children of Kai lords. Perhaps there are references to the descendents of the Sommlending in general, who are sent to the monastery to become Kai lords, but I don't recall any specific mention where it is clear that the Kai have children. I always thought of the Kai Order as being a real monastic society, which includes being celibate. And, in my opinion, Lone Wolf as he is described embodies that quite well. I might add "brethren" doesn't imply they have children in any sense at all. One can have a brother without having children of your own. Furthermore, brethren typically means "kin". From Merriam-Webster: "used chiefly in formal or solemn address or in referring to the members of a profession, society, or sect"
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simkn
Kai Lord
Posts: 111
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Post by simkn on Nov 17, 2004 3:34:46 GMT
Bathing with his clothes: maybe he wanted to wash them at the same time? In fact, I seem to remember the text giving that very explanation when it happens.
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simkn
Kai Lord
Posts: 111
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Post by simkn on Nov 17, 2004 3:38:17 GMT
The beauty of the series is this: almost no description is given as to Lone Wolf's appearance or personality. That means YOU the reader can fill it in for yourself... for that matter, when Dever says, "YOU are Lone Wolf!" it can be true! Excellent point, Sol. I've often thought about this as well. Another thing I noticed is that rarely (except maybe one or two times) does Joe Dever actually quote Lone Wolf. That is, when Lone Wolf says something, the text just tells us he says it, without giving an exact quotation. In that sense, Lone Wolf says things however we would want them said. To put it another way, Joe Dever never put any words in your mouth.
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Post by BenKenobi on Nov 17, 2004 20:31:04 GMT
So we can believe what we prefer... but I continue to see the Kai knights as male monks which dedicate all their existence to the study of Kai disciplines and the defense of Sommerlund and Magnamund.
Every Kai apprentice we see in the books, is male. It doesn't imply that all the Kai are male, but... if we had a female Kai, we could imagine they are not male... in n.18 , n.19 and in New Order books compare male Kai masters.
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Post by Ghost Bear on Nov 17, 2004 21:31:51 GMT
As a staunch member of the ERPG, I'm a firm believer in female Kai Lords (Ladies).
So Nyah!
-GB
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Post by Black Cat on Nov 18, 2004 2:03:31 GMT
Another thing I noticed is that rarely (except maybe one or two times) does Joe Dever actually quote Lone Wolf. That is, when Lone Wolf says something, the text just tells us he says it, without giving an exact quotation. It might be true with the early books of the series (1 to 12), but I'm pretty sure that in the GM series Joe quotes Lone Wolf at least once per book. Most of the time, it is a short sentence that can't be said in another way, but sometimes it is very sound, something that only a real hero could say. And, since YOU are Lone Wolf, YOU are that hero that says cool things.
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Post by Zipp on Nov 18, 2004 8:27:23 GMT
You know, there is a passage somewhere in one of the books that specifically mentions children. I'll take a look.
Anyways, the Kai wouldn't pass up a talented warrior just for being female. And they wouldn't want to limit you to not having kids, either. I mean, warrior bloodline and all. It's highly possible that a kai lord would be a horrible husband/wife. I mean, risk of dying mixed with stoic attitude and high dedication to work... it'd be like marrying a musician.
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columbob
Kai Lord
Up the Irons!
Posts: 161
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Post by columbob on Nov 18, 2004 12:50:17 GMT
Excellent point, Sol. I've often thought about this as well. Another thing I noticed is that rarely (except maybe one or two times) does Joe Dever actually quote Lone Wolf.. In book 8, LW says "He tried to kill me" to Paido when he lends his silver bow to the bowyer.
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Post by Sol on Nov 18, 2004 18:16:53 GMT
Here is the quote I am thinking of - it implies that Kai have children...
"In the northern land of Sommerlund, it has been the custom for many centuries to send the children of the Warrior Lords to the monastery of Kai. There they are taught the skills and disciplines of their noble fathers."
I guess we DO know:
* Kai potentials are children of warrior lords. * The disciplines taught to the potentials (the kai disciplines?) are also known by their fathers. So... * If their fathers know the kai disciplines, maybe they ARE kai as well. * No mention is made of mothers, but "noble fathers" COULD be implied as gender-neutral.
This is as close as I can get. Is it believable?
Regarding female kai, my first thought is: why not? My second thought: there was only ONE kai monostary, so it would have had to have been co-ed. And the celibacy issue, if it existed, would have been much more difficult. Can you imagine trying to enforce it with a number of 15-yr-old girls and boys right next door to one another? Now THAT would be a test of will for the young initiates!
Maybe this is where young Silent Wolf picked up the custom of "bathing with all his clothes on." I mean, it would be the only decent way in mixed... company!
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Post by Thomas Wolmer on Nov 18, 2004 18:53:52 GMT
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Post by Peregrine on Nov 19, 2004 6:05:59 GMT
Here is the quote I am thinking of - it implies that Kai have children... "In the northern land of Sommerlund, it has been the custom for many centuries to send the children of the Warrior Lords to the monastery of Kai. There they are taught the skills and disciplines of their noble fathers." Yeah, that's the exact quote I was thinking back to regarding how the Kai are originally described. That, and the following sentences, seem to imply a distinction between the "Kai monks" and the "Warrior Lords" that doesn't really make sense in light of the Kai we know in the later books. "Warrior Lords", for one, simply implies a martial nobility - which is not just the Kai lords, but every knight and baron of Sommerlund, right up to Prince Pelathar and Ulnar himself. The marriage question has been debated for so long that it seems very unlikely that there's any clear answer in any of the books. However, Joe himself has actually given it recently: Yes, they do! Aha! I knew it! Okay, yeah, it looks like I've been arguing against it, but what I've really been saying is that there isn't any definitive proof. My opinion has always been that the mentions of 'ancestors' and 'fathers' are meant literally, in the sense of bloodlines rather than merely 'forebears'. It makes sense that the Kai skills would be hereditary, or at least more common within families. Pity the female Kai question hasn't been settled. Even that quote implies both sides - "children" on one hand (not "sons"), but "fathers" on the other...
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Post by Sol on Nov 19, 2004 14:29:36 GMT
For what it is worth, a female kai is depicted on the cover of the new Mongoose book (the Roleplaying Book).
Regarding the link between Kai and the nobles of Sommerlund, I believe I recall that Sun Eagle, the first Kai, was a noble under Ulnar. (Maybe a soldier?) He took the Sunsword from the fallen Ulnar and trained the other nobles to be Kai as well.
This is the part that gets really sticky - the idea that Ulnar I was NOT a kai and that he was able to weild the Sun-Sword. I always wondered if perhaps he WAS kai (trained by Sun-Eagle) before defeating Vashna with the Sommerswerd, but no, I don't think he was.
Some kind of link between the nobles and the kai exists here, although the nature of it is hard for me to pin down. I wonder if the quote already mentioned which references "warrior lords" is meant to mean "royalty" ... "lords" can mean "royalty" although in many books I have read, "lord" can also just mean a very proficient warrior.
If Lone Wolf is descended in some way from a noble house, however, I remember no evidence of it.
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