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Post by outspaced on Aug 9, 2014 9:26:55 GMT
Well, it was more the ending/epilogue of Book 6 that Joe particularly objected to; the ending of Book 12 is more like the ending of a two-parter in a long-running serial. There's a certain small level of conclusion, but no finality about it. I know I've said it elsewhere, though, but Book 10 The Lorestone of Varetta is one of the best fantasy books I've read. So the series is definitely uneven and inconsistent.
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thog
Kai Lord
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Post by thog on Aug 9, 2014 13:42:41 GMT
What is it about Book 10 in particular that bowls you over, outspaced? Both in general and as compared to the other books in the Legends series.
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Post by outspaced on Aug 9, 2014 21:01:45 GMT
Good question, and one that's hard to explain. For one thing, a lot of the unnecessary "out there" stuff from the earlier books has been jettisoned--e.g. Thog the Mighty, Qinefer, the forced attempt at surrealism with The Birthplace, etc. Also gone are the irritating characters; the series should be about Lone Wolf--y'know, a guy who isn't surrounded by a legion of annoying bit players who keep taking centre stage and hogging the limelight, shunting the main protagonist to a supporting role. (In The Tellings, Lone Wolf doesn't even appear in his own 'Telling', for example.)
So we have a story that, for the first time in the series, is centred on Lone Wolf and not Qinefer, Banedon, Thog, Petra, Viveka, or any other boring nonentity. And that allows the more bizarre elements (such as the gestalt with Reason for Coming Back) to feel more a part of the world of Magnamund and less an authorial attempt at looking clever. (Apologies to fans of John Grant/Paul Barnett, but the author strikes me as someone who thinks he is far cleverer and more talented than he actually is. IMHO, of course, and YMMV.)
The character of Lone Wolf has also matured, his characterisation being far less whiny and irritating than in some of the earlier books. Details added to the narrative somehow seem more plausible and intelligent than materials found in the earlier books in the series--for example, The Sacrifice of Ruanon is truly awful as a novelised adaptation of one of my favourite books in the series, The Chasm of Doom; all that stuff about 'the Crazies' actually defeating Barraka's army was just moronic.
Also, the prose just seems to flow naturally, unlike the halting, staccato, grating nature of the words earlier in the series. It's a genuinely pleasant read with an interesting main character, a compelling storyline (based on The Kingdoms of Terror), intelligent and intriguing characterisation of the secondary and bit part players (Roark, Hal Morkarn, even Altan and Cyrilus), eminently readable prose, a few unexpected twists and turns even for those familiar with the gamebook it's based on, a couple of amusing typos (Qinefer on page 29; Quinefer on page 269), and even an ending that would have befit finishing the series since it didn't get as far as the destruction of the Darklords.
That all adds up to a long and winding post. Sorry about that, but I hope it gives some insight into why I esteem that particular book so highly.
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thog
Kai Lord
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Post by thog on Aug 10, 2014 15:07:34 GMT
That's a nice expository post, outspaced. I take it then that the novelizations that immediately followed The Lorestone of Varetta left you with a bitter taste in your mouth? After all Lone Wolf wasn't supposed to run the gauntlet of Kazan-Oud with Petra at his side nor was he meant to be reduced to a forlorn puppy (in a manner of speaking) pining for her love. Or do you take a more sympathetic view of the closing instalments in the series? Banedon remains an essential component of the Lone Wolf canon though and I admit it is intriguing how The Rotting Land depicts his meteoric ascension to the position of Guildmaster. The same goes for Rimoah and the insights afforded into the esoteric workings of the Elder Magi.
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Post by outspaced on Aug 11, 2014 9:35:45 GMT
I take it then that the novelizations that immediately followed The Lorestone of Varetta left you with a bitter taste in your mouth? After all Lone Wolf wasn't supposed to run the gauntlet of Kazan-Oud with Petra at his side nor was he meant to be reduced to a forlorn puppy (in a manner of speaking) pining for her love. Or do you take a more sympathetic view of the closing instalments in the series? Banedon remains an essential component of the Lone Wolf canon though and I admit it is intriguing how The Rotting Land depicts his meteoric ascension to the position of Guildmaster. The same goes for Rimoah and the insights afforded into the esoteric workings of the Elder Magi. Yeah, I do see Book 10 as the high point of the series, and Books 11 and 12 drifting back downwards, though nowhere near the nadir of Book 6! But it's more that the ending of Book 10 feels like an ending, even though it is apparent that there are greater tasks still ahead. The ending for Book 12 isn't an ending, really, it's just crying out for a follow-up. And you're spot on about how Lone Wolf seems unable to have an adult relationship with a female--even though all of his "friends" are so much more mature and liberal. The way the characters are written, one can imagine Banedon hosting a soiree at his Guildmaster's Mansion and Lone Wolf turning up late with dirty clothes, telling crude jokes, getting drunk and flirting unsuccessfully with the chambermaid, an embarrassment to his far more intelligent and learned friend. A personality a million miles away from the "Jedi monk-esque" vibe one gets from the gamebooks. That quote from Book 12 about Rhola Rhada: "She would have times of ill-temper, times of obtuseness, times of clumsiness...And all of these imperfections would add up to--perfection." Excuse me, that was the sound of me retching. (Male) Fantasy authors really do tend to short-change their female characters by making them irritating shrews and then demanding that the readership and the male characters simply accept that harridan-ship is A Good Thing that is in some unfathomable way linked to emancipation. Right, I'll stop now before I really go off on one, save to say, I don't really like any of Grant/Barnett's female characters!
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Post by ramthelinefeed on Aug 12, 2014 12:32:26 GMT
However, seeing how John Grant keeps on working on the original Legends books (the new omnibuses are the 3rd upgraded version of these novels by the author himself), we never know. Maybe he'll ask JD the permission to continue the series and publish them with the company that is currently making the new omnibuses. As I mentioned on the thread about the Kindle editions of these, I don't think the text of the Legends has been altered in any way for these re-releases?
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Post by sunmaster on Aug 13, 2014 14:19:12 GMT
I think a different writer completely, someone very established in the field, should write new Lone Wolf novels. and definitely that means no John Grant or any of his ilk. the cross-over from young to adult may not be any easy story to write...it's not impossible though
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thog
Kai Lord
Posts: 9
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Post by thog on Aug 13, 2014 16:18:37 GMT
So how do you imagine this 'different writer' ought to go about adapting the gamebooks, sunmaster? As opposed to Grant's take on Lone Wolf. The author's personal interpretation of the (expanded) story is absolutely vital as a full-blown novel needs to be far more detailed and intimate than a mere gamebook.
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Post by johntfs on Aug 13, 2014 18:46:24 GMT
And you're spot on about how Lone Wolf seems unable to have an adult relationship with a female--even though all of his "friends" are so much more mature and liberal. The way the characters are written, one can imagine Banedon hosting a soiree at his Guildmaster's Mansion and Lone Wolf turning up late with dirty clothes, telling crude jokes, getting drunk and flirting unsuccessfully with the chambermaid, an embarrassment to his far more intelligent and learned friend. A personality a million miles away from the "Jedi monk-esque" vibe one gets from the gamebooks. My Legends collection ended at Book 5, Hunting Wolf. Quinifer never really bugged me, but [good] did Alyss get on my tits. In any case, I never really saw LW as Jedi-monkish, but he certainly wasn't the spoiled child from the earlier books either. I saw LW more as "Jedi Viking." He pursued matters with a calm coolness until the time comes to unleash absolute berserker rage on some fools. Interestingly, The Kingdoms of Terrors is probably my favorite book in the series just because of the way Magnamund develops into its own real world.
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Post by outspaced on Aug 13, 2014 20:16:54 GMT
I'm not a huge fan of Star Wars--the films are fun, kiddy-friendly fare, but nothing more--but in the context of the creation and development of the world of Magnamund (1976-1984, the publication of the first book), those films were definitely part of the Zeitgeist and I think it's fair to say they influenced Joe's design for the monks of the Order of the Kai. Not that the two are analogous; but one definitely influenced the development of the other. I'm not a huge fan of Star Wars--the films are fun, kiddy-friendly fare, but nothing more--but in the context of the creation and development of the world of Magnamund (1976-1984, the publication of the first book), those films were definitely part of the Zeitgeist and I think it's fair to say they influenced Joe's design for the monks of the Order of the Kai. Not that the Jedi and the Kai are analogous; but one definitely influenced the development of the other. Hunting Wolf was #4, btw; you didn't hate Qinefer because she hadn't taken centre-stage as she did in books 5-8, where she was mercifully written out of the series. Should we be using massive SPOILER!!! tags for these posts? Edit: Ah! It occurs to me that Hunting Wolf probably was #5 in the US, where they split #3 into two separate novels.
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Post by redav on Aug 15, 2014 6:53:09 GMT
Varetta was a favourite of mine too. I feel similar about a lot of the comments here in that I did get a little sick of how the cameo's became the main story. That said, I seem to be one of the minority where I did enjoy the series and wished it had continued. I would love to see it continued / rebooted.
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Post by johntfs on Aug 15, 2014 7:17:33 GMT
I remember mostly acquiring it to complete/expand my LW collection, but I really wasn't that into it and was okay when it ended at Book 5 (which was, as outspaced noted, the American version of Hunting Wolf). For my part the real LW story was that one that I essentially told myself while I played through the books.
Honestly I was annoyed at the ending of Book 19 where LW ultimately obeys Alyss and goes for the Shadow Gate. My attitude when playing through that part is usually "Hey, Naar, you messed up. You just let me into your presence with a weapon that can kill you. That's your worst mistake and now, your last."
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Post by darkthief on Nov 18, 2014 21:17:03 GMT
Ahh yes, I remember reading these a long time ago. But having started playing the gamebooks again (thanks to this site) it gives rise to a discrepancy about novel 12: If my memory serves correctly, LW picks up the necromancer's black book from the barge and both he and Gwynian are effectively "killed" by it (they were left in limbo and the series of novels ended)...yet in the equivalent gamebook (8), the black book doesn't seem to do anything?
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