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Post by Sol on Dec 18, 2004 1:15:24 GMT
Zipp,
That was a little morbid, but cool! How many ways can that Kai die?
prdwong,
I continue to read your account with interest! Supercool! I think it is good to assume (for your weak character) that he makes all the smart choices (like getting the shield, Animal Kinship, etc) but has all the worst luck when rolling his stats. I mean, if he makes bad decisions, he can fall into an insta-death with ease!
Regarding the speed given by Hunting, you will see what I mean in Book 3! Specifically, I am talking about the task of jumping from ice-flow to ice-flow. The skill has similar benefits from here on in in later books as well.
At this point, if a player has a 90% chance of surviving Book 2 and a 100% chance for Book 1 (Best possible CS and EP rolls) then it is fair to say that he has a 90% chance of completing Book 1 and 2. It looks as if you will have a 65.21% chance of finishing both in a worst-case situation.
Keep up the kewlness!
Sol
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Post by Zipp on Dec 18, 2004 1:27:24 GMT
Oops, I didn't select them all when I copied the document.
You have taken less than ten paces when the raven squawks a warning to the stranger. Turning to face you, the robed creature utters a piercing screech that freezes your blood abd grips your stomach with fear and panic. I is a Vordak, a lieutenant of the Darklords and one of the undead. Within seconds, a host of Giaks appear at its side and attack you. You fight bravely but you are greatly outnumbered. The last thing you remember is the icy grasp of the Vordak's skeletal fingers as they close around your throat. Your life and your mission end here.
Within a few minutes, you can see the Kraan hovering over a hilltop behind you. At a quick count you can make out at least sixteen of these horrible creatures, each of which has at least two Giaks riding upon its back. They are armed with long spears and wear tall pointed helmets of dull bronze. You hear the excited grunts of the Giaks. They have spotted you. You jump for the entrance of the tunnel some twenty-five feet below, but your boot gets caught in a thorny briar and you hang helplessly upside down- weaponless and vulnerable. Fortunately for you the end is swift: as the first Giak lance pierces your heart, death is instantaneous. Your life and your mission end here.
(Book 2 on the way)
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Post by Zipp on Dec 18, 2004 2:43:15 GMT
And, as long as we're on the subject, here's all combatable enemies. Prdwong, you can inform me if I've missed any, but be aware I've combined the same enemy into one statistic, it's strongest, so it's not a list of all possible combats, just the fun guys that are out there, waiting.
Giak 1- CS 11 EP 18 Giak 2- CS 12 EP 17 Drakkar- CS 15 EP 23 Marsh Viper- CS 16 EP 6 Giaks- CS 15 EP 13 Bodyguard- CS 11 EP 21 The "ouch" Gourgaz- CS 20 EP 30 Kraan- CS 16 EP 24 Vordak- CS 17 EP 25 Mounted Vordak- CS 17 EP 25 Black Bear- CS 16 EP 10 The "poor" Giak- CS 9 EP 9 Madman- CS 11 EP 10 Giak + Doomwolf- CS 15 EP 24 Giak 1- CS 13 EP 10 Giak 2- CS 12 EP 10 Winged Serpent- CS 16 EP 18 Giak 1: CS 14 EP 11 Giak 2: CS 13 EP 11 Crypt spawn- CS 16 EP 16 Burrowcrawler- CS 17 EP 7 Leader- CS 15 EP 22 Soldier 1- CS 13 EP 20 Soldier 2- CS 12 EP 20 Robber- CS 13 EP 20 Giak + Doomwolf- CS 14 EP 24 Vordak- CS 18 EP 26
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Post by prdwong on Dec 20, 2004 21:31:12 GMT
I made another mistake. 14.39% (before mast), 10% (mast), and 1.24% (getting GC) does not equal ~25% chance of death, it really means 23.91% chance of death. I've fixed the appropriate section above. Book 3 is actually turning out to be just as complicated... However, it appears that Book 3 is fairly hard to survive in the worst-case. It looks like it will turn out to be in the ~60% chance of survival or so. So while I'm still working on the exact numbers, it would be helpful for me if people could actually attempt to do Book 3 with a new character. Start with CS:10, EP:20, GC:10 and see if you can get to the end. If you do, I'd like to know what path you took, and which disciplines and equipment you chose. Thanks!
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Post by Sol on Dec 21, 2004 5:50:54 GMT
prdwong,
I have been studying Kalte lately and looking for the safest path myself. This might be it:
SPOILERS:
START (HUNTING HELPS) 1-->160-->204-->134-->(RAND 1 2 or 3)
RANDOM SEC1: (HEALING HELPS) 57-->17-->62-->167-->(RAND 4 or 5)
RANDOM SEC2: 188-->232-->(RAND 4 or 5)
RANDOM SEC3: 331-->(RAND, but both lead to 167)-->(RAND 4 or 5)
RANDOM SEC4: 85-->(Caverns1)
RANDOM SEC5: 300->12->180->(Fight Kalkoth)-->(Kalkoth 1 or 2)
KALKOTH1: 70-->339--> DEATH
KALKOTH2: 129-->155-->(ROLL VS DEATH)-->191-->(Caverns2)
Caverns 1: (gets FireSphere)(Tracking avoids Javek) 49-->284-->(roll vs. Death)-->176-->5-->14--> (fight raggety men)-->309-->132-->229-->46--> 269-->182-->235-->(Ikaya)
Caverns 2 (no FireSphere... Sixth Sense avoids death) 40-->184-->298-->315-->302-->(RAND)-->(IKAYA)
Ikaya: (LW will have blue triangle) 235-->52-->265-->(Fight FrostWyrm)-->3-->280--> 344-->41-->221-->38-->237-->297-->317-->10--> (get Alether +4 and Gallowbrush)-->126-->246--> 45-->303-->308-->(get Silver Helm)-->323--> (Rand 6 or 7)
RANDOM SECTION 6: 76-->261-->(Ikaya 2)
RANDOM SECTION 7: 2-->(Ikaya 2)
Ikaya 2: (Camouflage avoids fight) 290-->124-->264-->244-->150-->120-->274-->227--> 102-->(get Effigy)-->306-->6-->166-->111-->254--> 56-->192-->44-->157-->301-->122-->173-->34--> 350
Assumptions: Finished book 1 and 2 Have Sommerswerd
Required Disciplines: Healing Hunting Sixth Sense Camouflage Tracking
Also nice to have: Mindblast WeaponSkill
FIGHTS: (possible fight: Kalkoth in Section 180, semi-deadly)
(fight old ice barbarians to get BlueStone Triangle and FireSphere in 14)
(fight Frostwyrm if you want Silver Helm, could avoid)
(fight Ice Demon. Autowin with Sommerswerd).
It is possible to get through this book with just 1 easy combat against the old Ice Barbarians if you choose the same Disciplines that I did, but you will also want to fight at least the FrostWyrm if you want the Silver Helm.
Random Numbers can kill you in several ways. Still, your chances of running into a deadly Kalkoth encounter are slim.
This will be a tough book to calculate because of all the ways that Random Numbers can send you this way and that. I have not found any way to avoid rolls vs. instant death. You have to either jump across ice flows, navigate a trecharous stair, or fight a Kalkoth. Not sure if fighting the Baaknar for its oil is worth it... is it a help vs. the Kalkoth in case you win that fight?
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Post by longhairyuppiescum on Dec 21, 2004 19:18:24 GMT
Not sure if fighting the Baaknar for its oil is worth it... is it a help vs. the Kalkoth in case you win that fight? Sol, No, no... as far as I rember, Kalkoth love to have Baknar for dinner. It's good against the cold like when jumping over ice flows with no luck, but it increases the change for getting the attention of Kalkoth in some place(s?). - If I rember all this stuff right.. - Nice thread. My interest is to find the right Kai-Skill to pick for each book in my quest to finish all of the Kai-/Magnakai in one row without cheating. By now I only got as far as The Dungeons of Torgar.. (I think. - Some trys are as long as 20 years ago.. -- No, of course it was not The Dungeons at that time!) FSATK! Kolja
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Post by prdwong on Dec 21, 2004 20:51:17 GMT
Thanks Sol. That corresponds pretty closely to what I was thinking, so I'll go ahead and calculate that general route. My problem is that it would be really hard to rigorously prove that some other radically different path would be better, but from a high-level view, it certainly appears this is the way to go.
Some minor problems: The worst-case scenario would not have finished Book 1 and 2 and hence would not have the Sommerswerd. In this case, if you end up at your RAND 5, you are most likely going to die against the Akraa'Neonor (RAND 5 = no Firesphere = no Effigy = must fight Akraa'Neonor).
The only other significant change I would make doing 300->238 instead of 300->12. Not only do you avoid the dangerous Kalkoths at 180/259, and the deaths at 339/248/37, but you also pick up the Blue Stone Triangle at 321, with 0 danger and no needed disciplines.
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Post by Sol on Dec 22, 2004 0:10:45 GMT
prdwong,
Ah, yes, you are right. No need to go against the Kalkoths... since you can't get the FireSphere that way anyway, no need to even try for it.
Speaking of the FireSphere, I see your problem... a 10 CS character could have a real problem if:
SPOILERS: he did not get the FireSphere. A worst-case fight with Aa'kraa Neonor would be very bad... even if you had Mindblast (+2) and drank your Alether (+6 in all). I wouldn't count WeaponSkill since you might or might not have that +2. So unless you came by the FireSphere, you would be at -6. On the other hand, the fight IS a test of Random Numbers. So is the discovery of the FireSphere in the first place. So a low score could still win... provided that he rolled the correct random number for FireSphere. If he misses that roll, he might very well be toast.
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Post by Sol on Dec 22, 2004 0:38:34 GMT
LongHairy, I find these skills useful for completing the series... see if it helps you! SPOILERS:
Sol's Guide to the Kai and Magnakai Disciplines Book 1:
I consider Sixth Sense and Healing to be "musts." I also like Tracking. This way you have less chance of stumbling into an "instant-death" situation in every book from now on. Weaponskill is nice, so is Mindblast, but that is strictly for the raise in CS.
Book 2: I always grab Animal Kinship. This guarantees me safe passage in the Tarnalin. Take it! (unless you like fighting Helghasts).
Book 3: I tend to get Hunting now. In this book, you start to get bonuses to your rolls if you have Hunting. It can make the difference between life-and-death even if you can't use it to eat in Book 3.
Book 4: I don't know if there is a really important skill for this book. I like to have both Mindshield AND Mind Over Matter for Book 5, though, so maybe it would be good to take one of these.
Book 5: If you have Animal Kinship AND Mind-Over-Matter, it is easy to get away from Maok's men at the start of the book. Mindshield seems really important for the final fight against Haakon and can also be used to help you get the Jewelled Mace. Mind-Over-Matter again can also help you open a certain lock - this helps you avoid certain death.
Book 6: I like Huntmastery (for the speed) Pathsmanship (to help me choose the right path) and WeaponMastery (to help me beat Altan - still hard). As a nice little bonus, you will also have the Circle of Fire this way. Curing seems nice, but if you already have Healing, it is not as necessary. Divination could be nice, but I seem to get along OK without it as long as I have Pathsmanship.
Book 7: Huntmastery again is VERY important here (you DO already have it, right?) I might pick Divination for this book.
Book 8: There is a way to avoid the Helghasts in this book, but if you don't know it, better make sure you have all of these: Huntmastery, Divination, and Psi-Screen. I know you want more Lore-Circles, but trust me... this is better.
Book 9: Psi-Surge seems to have some use in this book. I would take it at this point in order to get the nice CS-boost. For an "easy win" leave the Sommerswerd in Safe Keeping at the start of this book and bring the Dagger of Vashna instead. You *do* have WeaponMastery with the Dagger, yes?
Book 10: Huntmastery helps a bit in this book - otherwise choose what you like for a discipline. I think Nexus is the obvious choice since you can finish the Circle of the Spirit. Invisibility might be nice for this book since you do some sneaking and you can finish the Circle of Solaris with this.
Book 11: I would take Invisibility or Nexus... whichever you still need. You will want these LoreCircles badly in order to have the highest CS possible for this book... this book is HARD!
Book 12: Take either one: Curing or Animal Control. At this level, Curing gives you a big EP boost when you are getting low on points. Animal Control might help you beat the Sea Serpent, though.
Book 13: Assimilance AND GrandHuntmastery help you survive a very difficult random roll at book's end. My only other advice: get your CS up as high as you can!
Book 14 and on: ?
Hope this helps! Sol
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Post by Zipp on Dec 22, 2004 0:40:28 GMT
Not only that, but the firesphere is one of the most helpful items in the gamebooks.
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Post by longhairyuppiescum on Dec 22, 2004 13:08:29 GMT
but the firesphere is one of the most helpful items in the gamebooks. Yeah. But to be honest I dont't like killing innocent old man to get it! - Even if they are barbarians, they are just crazy old man! - Call me a softy or a or man getting old by himself, but I dont see this as a good way to play Lone Wolf. (I admit I'm hardcore..) I don't remember exactly, but I think that's the only way to get one of these rare and wondrous fire things! - Please correct me if there is another way! - I'd really love one without having to accuse myself of foul murder.
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Post by Sol on Dec 22, 2004 13:31:26 GMT
Longhairy,
There is another way to get a Firesphere:
SPOILERS: If you walk up to the old men and ask them for some meat, they will run off screaming - they simply leave the FireSphere for you and you need not kill them. On the other hand, by doing it this way you will be unable to get their BlueStone Triangle, but I suppose this is how life goes in Kalte!
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Post by longhairyuppiescum on Dec 22, 2004 13:52:59 GMT
Ah.. - OK! you're so right! I remember know! This path is full of honour and deadly danger! Kalte is such an inhospitable place to be!
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Post by longhairyuppiescum on Dec 22, 2004 14:34:11 GMT
Sol, Thanks for the suggestions! They probably will help me on future runs. - At least the hints for books I havn't played yet or at least not excessively.. .. (unless you like fighting Helghasts).
I love it! - At least when my CS isn't too low. Then of course your choice is mandatory. .. Book 3: I tend to get Hunting now. In this book, you start to get bonuses to your rolls if you have Hunting. It can make the difference between life-and-death even if you can't use it to eat in Book 3.
I see it the same way. Thanks for confirming. .. .. What the heck is it for? I always threw it away - really! Can anyone just give me a hint in what book it can be of use? .. Book 8: There is a way to avoid the Helghasts in this book, but if you don't know it, better make sure you have all of these: Huntmastery, Divination, and Psi-Screen. I know you want more Lore-Circles, but trust me... this is better.
Avoiding the Helghast!? - Really? I have to figure it out..! SPOILER: My last run ended letting poor Paido die from the poison the suckers of would be monks gave in our soup. (Great instant death scene!) I didn't found a way around this, so I would have to take Curing to manage this. Because <see my Signatue>. (By the way: Obviously the monks are NOT as innocent as they pretent to be. But killing all of them still seemed not right. - Would it have helped?)
.. For an "easy win" leave the Sommerswerd in Safe Keeping at the start of this book and bring the Dagger of Vashna instead... Maybe that's for an own thread or so, but: SPOILERS: Is there any reasonably explanation why Lone Wolf cannot use the Psychic Ring or Dagger of Vashna against the sucker even if he possess the Sommerswerd?Are there already other treads about this? .. Book 13: Assimilance AND GrandHuntmastery help you survive a very difficult random roll at book's end... That sould help once I am Grandmaster. Thanks! (But it's a long (hardcore) way to go..)
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Post by Sol on Dec 22, 2004 18:08:53 GMT
LongHairy,
I am glad you found it interesting! It sounds like you are trying to "crack" Book 8 right now... good for you! Re: Jeweled Mace... I don't know what it is for, but you CAN take it into the Grandmaster Series, so it must be good for something. I just don't know what!
As for saving Paido, here are some hints: You are right on first of all... Curing will definitely help you. Failing that, if you have some Laumspur, you might also be able to help him. I know you lost your backpack in Book 7, but I think you are allowed to choose a new potion when you start Book 8. Also, to help Paido, you will have to find a way out of the Temple. This can be tough, but you can do it!
And yes, there is a thread where fans discussed the concept of using the Dagger of Vashna in Book 9 vs. using the Sommerswerd. I am not sure where... can anyone help?
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