Kai "Wisdom"

[UrQuan]

"Pick your Grand Master Disciplines with care, for a wise choice will enable any player to complete the quest, no matter how weak their initial COMBAT SKILL and ENDURANCE scores may be."

Indeed?



Well, 1 through 12 is possible with minimum stats, though not exactly fun to do. I have done 1-12, and without dying, with 9 CS 20 EP: Seventh Sense Hall of Fame.

Unlike in GM, there are only a few instadeaths: (actual odds)



Book 2: 10% (falling mast)

Book 4: 10% (sniper)

Book 5: 6% (falling Lone Wolf)



And in By-The-Book most combats are at a 90%+ win rate even at this Combat Strength. The Chaos-master is the real roadblock for this run:

=== Cumulative ===
 success: 3.7402724224%
   average LW EP: 4.990179201713
 failure: 96.2597275776%
   average E EP: 25.193280052078

The Villains are at 74%.

I'm very sure it's not possible with lower stats than this, with or without deaths.



1 through 20? Well, more or less. I have done 1 through 17 without dying at 13 CS 20 EP, but one Combat Skill lower and several combats start to become very problematic. 10 CS 20 EP should still be possible with enough restarts. I'm fairly confident 13 CS is as low as you can go in a No Deaths run, though. All the instadeaths really start to add up in that case too: (not the actual RNT odds)



Book 2:   10% (falling mast)

Book 4:   10% (sniper)

Book 5:   10% (falling Lone Wolf)

Book 13:  6%  (whipping chain) (derived, without Kai-Alchemy)
              10% (falling bridge)

Book 14: 10% (falling Lone Wolf)
              10% (falling Lone Wolf) (without Animal Mastery)
              1.2%(overwhelming odds) (derived)
              10% (bolt-thrower)

Book 15: 10% (jousting)
              20% (falling Lone Wolf)

Book 17: 14% (charging bull) (derived, with 11 CR against Tagazin)
              30% (falling keystone)

Book 20:  6%  (overwhelming odds) (derived)

Total:     18% chance to survive



That is with these skills, in this order: (where relevant)


KAI

Camouflage
Hunting
Healing
Weaponskill
Mindblast

Book 2: Animal Kinship
Book 3: Mind over Matter
Book 4: Mindshield
Book 5: Sixth Sense


MAGNAKAI

Weaponmastery
Huntmastery
Psi-surge

Book 7: Psi-screen
Book 8: Nexus
Book 9: Divination
Book 10: Pathsmanship
Book 11: Invisibility
Book 12: Curing


GRANDMASTER

Assimilance
Grand Huntmastery
Grand Pathsmanship
Kai-surge

Book 14: Grand Weaponmastery
Book 15: Kai-alchemy
Book 16: Kai-screen
Book 17: Deliverance
Book 18: Animal Mastery
Book 19: Grand Nexus
Book 20: Telegnosis



Fresh start, The Prisoners of Time:

This is where things start going downhill for the Kai Wisdom, very quickly: Chaos-master (badly wounded): COMBAT SKILL 38 ENDURANCE 54

The absolute maximum Combat Ratio you will have in this fight is -4 (with Psi-surge), which already means a dubious 10% win rate. Then, if you somehow trudged through the whole book, the Chaos-master and worse, you get to fight the Villains. It is completely impossible for a fresh character to have more than a -11 CR here, leaving the fight unwinnable:

=== Cumulative ===
 success: 0.001383963%
   average LW EP: 2.51349060632
 failure: 99.998616037%
   average E EP: 39.23420035756


Fresh start, The Deathlord of Ixia:

The Deathlord fight: (at full EP)

=== Cumulative ===
 success: 0.474673704%
   average LW EP: 8.4161090078
 failure: 99.525326296%
   average E EP: 30.38837670258

It is again impossible for a fresh character to have more than -11 CR here so the fight is practically impossible. And you can't even Kai-blast him. Ixia is really the least of your worries though, because it is completely impossible to even get there. You will not make it past Tagazin, the Lavas, the 3 Kajarda, or even make it into Xaagon to begin with. Without legacy healing, the damage adds up very quickly, and unlike in Prisoners of Time or other GM books there are no full heals to be seen. Without legacy healing, this book is insane for any character.

At the very least The Darke Crusade and The Curse of Naar are also impossible as fresh starts.

The Grand Master Wisdom in the beginning of these books is such a joke statement that it should be footnoted in the online books like in Prisoners of Time.

[Wise Eagle]

The Mongoose edition books makes cs 9 more or less impossible due to changes in book 1. High and new instant death chance(s) and a compulsory fight at end which will certainly kill any character with cs 9 unless they are extremely lucky.

Also the helghast in book 2 (which is mandatory since like forever) will very likely kill any character with cs 9. (cs 22, ep 30 immune to mindblast, must be battled with a spear.)

It is quite problematic to avoid all in book 3 due to random events while travelling leaving quite a few things to chance. Go down to the caverns too late and the only way to get the Blue Stone Triangle is the Kalkoth fight with an insta death risk. Then you have the ice floes and the Javek if you go down too early.

Book 13 has an another 10% risk unless character has 28 EP or more when swinging across to the lab, since this is after exterminus chances fairly high the character has less hp than that.
The "whipping chain" should be more than 6%. Even if you can act to foil the roll by having an unsuitable weapon for the task, the chance is then 70% to reach a 20% death risk section, or 14%. More normal would be standard weapon for 90% to reach 20% or 18%, or if you have one of the suitable weapons for a 20% risk.

[UrQuan]

Nov 10, 2015 19:50:51 GMT Wise Eagle said:

The Mongoose edition books makes cs 9 more or less impossible due to changes in book 1. High and new instant death chance(s) and a compulsory fight at end which will certainly kill any character with cs 9 unless they are extremely lucky.

Indeed, the new book 1 would be a huge roadblock for all low stat runs. I haven't played it in ages since it's not in Seventh Sense, but I'm guessing the Kai Wisdom doesn't hold true anymore for that book either.

Also the helghast in book 2 (which is mandatory since like forever) will very likely kill any character with cs 9. (cs 22, ep 30 immune to mindblast, must be battled with a spear.)

The Helghast fight is not mandatory, not in the Project Aon books or in Seventh Sense, and not in the Mongoose edition. You just need Animal Kinship.

With your skill choices there is a death risk in 2 when escaping the helghast on the way to Tarnalin, this can avoided only by sixth sense. (At least 10% without sixth sense).

Nope.

Book 13 has an another 10% risk unless character has 28 EP or more when swinging across to the lab, since this is after exterminus chances fairly high the character has less hp than that.
The "whipping chain" should be more than 6%. Even if you can act to foil the roll by having an unsuitable weapon for the task, the chance is then 70% to reach a 20% death risk section, or 14%. More normal would be standard weapon for 90% to reach 20% or 18%, or if you have one of the suitable weapons for a 20% risk.

Well, you can just heal to 28 EP before that section. The chance is 30% to reach that 20% instadeath section = 6%. You want to fail that first roll.

It is quite problematic to avoid all in book 3 due to random events while travelling leaving quite a few things to chance. Go down to the caverns too late and the only way to get the Blue Stone Triangle is the Kalkoth fight with an insta death risk. Then you have the ice floes and the Javek if you go down too early.

Caverns of Kalte actually doesn't leave anything to chance. It is in fact the only book with no combats or instadeaths guaranteed. Route should be something like this:

1: Set out by ship to the land of Kalte. Came ashore in pursuit of Vonotar the traitor.
160: Attacked by a hungry Baknar.
204: Drove Baknar away from camp.
134: Reached Syem Island.
57: Struggled on through the snow.
17: Diagnosed the initial stages of snow blindness.
62: Slept on the ice shelf. Lost 3 EP.
167: Readied for bed after trek across Viad Glacier.
85: Trekked across the Viad Glacier.
212: Slept in camp.
238: Fell into deep sleep after rigorous trek.
117: Happened upon ice bridge during approach to the fortress.
162: Weighed likelihood of saving Dyce.
257: Observed by Ice Barbarians drawn by Dyce's death screams.
307: Drove off Ice Barbarians.
178: Tracked Ice Barbarians until accidentally falling through the ice.
105: Survived fall into Caverns of Kalte.
321: Discovered Blue Stone Triangle in grotto.
235: Reached the foundations of Ikaya.

[Wise Eagle]

The Helghast fight is not mandatory, not in the Project Aon books or in Seventh Sense, and not in the Mongoose edition. You just need Animal Kinship.

The helghast fight is mandatory. Just check it yourself. Only in the very first editions is it not mandatory.

section 299 (entrance section)

Give away the spear (you must have battled the helghast to have acquired it), to section 118 (You meet the Noodnic and Animal Kinship can save you).

Do not give away the spear, you can then have the magic spear but ONLY if you defeated the helghast, to section 102

102 faces you directly with a left tunnel (64) or right tunnel (164) choice. Tracking does not help. You are past the section with the noodnic and the only thing which allows you to progress is the magic spear.

Assume you don't have the spear. The first section is not selectable. The second section sends you past the noondic and into the evil clutches of the helghast. There you are dead.


I edited the escape. You are right, sixth sense doesn't really help. You'd better be psychic or remember exactly which choice saves you from the random death when evading section. There is no logic which can tell the player which option leads to the random death choice and which isn't.

Well, you can just heal to 28 EP before that section.

Healing to 28 EP is not necessarily possible at all. Several bottles of Laumspur is generally not taken on any adventure.

The chance is 30% to reach that 20% instadeath section = 6%. You want to fail that first roll.

You possess the Sommerswerd, right? The +4 bonus is not optional at all the way the section reads. With the Sommweswerd you only have 10% chance of failing and 30% if you have one of the unsuitable weapons. I.e. success chance which leads to the random death section is 90% resp. 70%.

I also really dislike this type of meta-gaming. How exactly did Lone Wolf know that he'd be safer to fail than succeeding ?

Route should be something like this:

It looks like you can get back on the route. But couple of the sections below are random numbers picked and they can send you on quite different routes where you enter the caverns in different places.

[UrQuan]

Nov 10, 2015 21:54:13 GMT Wise Eagle said:

The Helghast fight is not mandatory, not in the Project Aon books or in Seventh Sense, and not in the Mongoose edition. You just need Animal Kinship.

The helghast fight is mandatory. Just check it yourself. Only in the very first editions is it not mandatory.

section 299 (entrance section)

Give away the spear (you must have battled the helghast to have acquired it), to section 118 (You meet the Noodnic and Animal Kinship can save you).

Do not give away the spear, you can then have the magic spear but ONLY if you defeated the helghast, to section 102

102 faces you directly with a left tunnel (64) or right tunnel (164) choice. Tracking does not help. You are past the section with the noodnic and the only thing which allows you to progress is the magic spear.

Assume you don't have the spear. The first section is not selectable. The second section sends you past the noondic and into the evil clutches of the helghast. There you are dead.

I remember now, in fact I myself reported this discrepancy with the Mongoose editions, and I also remember that it was deliberately not incorporated in the online books, unlike all the other Mongoose changes. Pretty funny. I wonder if this was really sanctioned by Joe one way or another? Seeing as this, again, throws the Kai Wisdom into the thrash.

But yes, Seventh Sense and the other playing aids use the Project Aon versions obviously.

"If you wish to give him your Magic Spear so that he can defend the tunnel entrance, or if you do not possess a Magic Spear, turn to 118."

Well, you can just heal to 28 EP before that section.

Healing to 28 EP is not necessarily possible at all. Several bottles of Laumspur is generally not taken on any adventure.

Well, in the No Deaths runs I start that book (and most GM books) with a Backpack full of Laumspur.

The chance is 30% to reach that 20% instadeath section = 6%. You want to fail that first roll.

You possess the Sommerswerd, right? The +4 bonus is not optional at all the way the section reads. With the Sommweswerd you only have 10% chance of failing and 30% if you have one of the unsuitable weapons. I.e. success chance which leads to the random death section is 90% resp. 70%.

I also really dislike this type of meta-gaming. How exactly did Lone Wolf know that he'd be safer to fail than succeeding ?

Yes, but in Seventh Sense it goes by which weapon you have equipped.

It was Sixth Sense

Route should be something like this:

It looks like you can get back on the route. But couple of the sections below are random numbers picked and they can send you on quite different routes where you enter the caverns in different places.

No, you are absolutely guaranteed to get to section 105.

[UrQuan]

I played all the Grandmaster books as fresh starts in Seventh Sense. Again, the real problem is the lack of legacy healing. (and the lack of healing items since it's a fresh start, and the lack of full heals in most books). There are several mandatory combats in each book and you get zapped by a million different things. You just get grinded down hopelessly.

Book 13: Not great but possible with max stats.
Book 14: Insane but possible with max stats.
Book 15: Completely impossible.
Book 16: Even more insane. There are two full heals in this one though. Should be possible with max stats.
Book 17: Completely impossible.

[Wise Eagle]

Well, in the No Deaths runs I start that book (and most GM books) with a Backpack full of Laumspur.

Even book 7???

Generally I'd think it would be hard to save up that many Laumspur, especially with the low cs. There are a couple of places to stock up but they are not that plentiful.

Yes, but in Seventh Sense it goes by which weapon you have equipped.

The sections are very inconsistent here. Sometimes having a spear never gets you killed. Sometimes using exactly the same spear does get you killed.

No, you are absolutely guaranteed to get to section 105.

I am generally always guaranteed to not end up at that section, because I'd never make quite a few of the choices needed. A two days delay to retrace the route and go back for seemingly no benefit? No way!!!! I see a light near to the camp and do not investigate? No chance!

Apart from the sections that do drop you to 105, there is very similar sections that has a % risk of sending you to death by random number instead. And there is no real reason for the player to choose one option over the other. (Apart from "meta-knowledge" that this other reasonable option has a chance to get the character killed.)

[UrQuan]

Nov 10, 2015 23:34:13 GMT Wise Eagle said:

Well, in the No Deaths runs I start that book (and most GM books) with a Backpack full of Laumspur.

Even book 7???

Generally I'd think it would be hard to save up that many Laumspur, especially with the low cs. There are a couple of places to stock up but they are not that plentiful.

No, I really don't use any healing items in Kai through Magnakai, except for book 11. In the 1-20 run I use four +4 Laumspur there, which leaves close to 20 left going into Grandmaster, where they are used as needed, primarily in books 13 and 14. In book 17 I use the better healing items, as in the two Oede and the stuff from book 13.

Yes, but in Seventh Sense it goes by which weapon you have equipped.

The sections are very inconsistent here. Sometimes having a spear never gets you killed. Sometimes using exactly the same spear does get you killed.

Wait, which sections are you referring to? I don't think having the Magic Spear ever gets you killed.

No, you are absolutely guaranteed to get to section 105.

I am generally always guaranteed to not end up at that section, because I'd never make quite a few of the choices needed. A two days delay to retrace the route and go back for seemingly no benefit? No way!!!! I see a light near to the camp and do not investigate? No chance!

Apart from the sections that do drop you to 105, there is very similar sections that has a % risk of sending you to death by random number instead. And there is no real reason for the player to choose one option over the other. (Apart from "meta-knowledge" that this other reasonable option has a chance to get the character killed.)

Well, I definitely use more "offending" meta-knowledge for my runs than knowing the route through Kalte.  (such as leaving the Sommerswerd at home before book 9)

[Rusty Radiator]

The leaving behind the SSwerd thing requires nimble metagaming to justify the meta- knowledge. As LW gets increasingly punished for traipsing round with the National Treasure, he may decide he is placing it at risk, misusing it for a personal crusade, not worthy of it till he finds all the lorestones, figures that its goodly aura attracts unwelcome attention or any other plausible excuse that presents itself. He may even feel that he is not truly following in Sun Eagle's footsteps using this magical crutch...