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Post by BlackStoneNY on Mar 18, 2005 17:32:43 GMT
I have a huge question on the riddle Shamath gives you on section 189, and where Dever came up with the answer. I've racked my brain on it for an hour now and still can't come up with an answer.
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Post by Sol on Mar 18, 2005 17:42:41 GMT
This is the HARDEST RIDDLE EVER. Even when you know the answer, you might not believe it. Anyway, here is a hint for you on how to solve it!
HINT (Select the text to reveal spoiler):
To solve the riddle, keep in mind that Shamath can't have any trusted minions if she has not chosen them yet.
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Post by Sol on Mar 18, 2005 17:43:34 GMT
BlackStone, also WELCOME! I am from NY State, too!
Sol
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Post by The Tagazin Poodle on Mar 18, 2005 17:54:15 GMT
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Post by BlackStoneNY on Mar 18, 2005 17:56:25 GMT
Okay tried that, but still didn't get the number. Here si how I originally tried to do this
X was the number she had to start with.
Now in addition to X she had 2 Dwellers.
The number of Lieuteneants of the Night equal the number of loyal servants plus the number of dwellers (their number was doubled). Y is the Lieutenants so now we have
X+2=Y
Now when the Lieutenants showed, the dwellers left, so the total number (w) is reduced by 2.
2Y-2=W
Now from the remainder of that number, half left becuase they were beholden to the dwellers. So the new total (call it v) is now
W-W/2=V
From this number she sellected all, save one that was a traitor whom she killed. meaning that the answer (a) is
a=V-1
Lets plug it all back in now
V is w -w/2 so we have
a = w - w/2 -1 clean it up (multiply both sides by 2)
2a= w - 2 (w is 2Y -2) so now
2a = 2Y - 4 (y is equal to x+2) so now we have
2a = 2(x+2) -4
a= x +2 -2
a = x
so any number can be used and the answer will be correct
if there is a flaw in here somplace soneone please point it out
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Post by BlackStoneNY on Mar 18, 2005 18:05:25 GMT
Okay, read the link and agree this is just a broken riddle. I think there was an opps somewhere. Frustraiting
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Post by BlackStoneNY on Mar 18, 2005 18:13:54 GMT
Hey Sol. Not in NY for much longer. Move at the end of april to Calaifornia
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Post by Sol on Mar 18, 2005 18:48:42 GMT
BlackStony,
Here is another hint (And yes the riddle is broken):
From a mathematical viewpoint, you are correct - many answers would work. But to understand the answer, you have to realize that no math is needed. None at all. Why?
Well,
Basically Shamath says that she is choosing her loyal servants. If she is choosing them, then she does not have any. If she does not have any, she does not have any. It is 0. That's all there is to it. The rest is only there to confuse you. In short, she already gave you the answer before you even started.
This is why you can't use just any number in the equation. You see, she wouldn't be choosing loyal servants if she had already chosen loyal servants. Therefore she is starting with 0 loyal servants. If you insist on using the equation, you eventually get 0=0 and this is definitely true, and it is one of the correct answers.
But because of reasons just stated, it is the only correct answer only because we KNOW she is starting with 0 loyal servants.
Also the answer is cute because the demoness trusts nobody, and that seems to follow, too.
Now how do you turn to Section 0? That's the second (HARD) part of the riddle.
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Post by Zipp on Mar 18, 2005 19:04:34 GMT
Sol is absolutely right from a logical stand point and you are absolutesly correct from a mathmatical standpoint.
Now... what does the letter "x" represent in literary numerals?
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Post by BlackStoneNY on Mar 18, 2005 19:17:17 GMT
Oh I got the riddle, and I don't think it has anything to do with x.
I just say its a bad riddle, especially given the concequences. One of the worst in fact.
I can explain it if someone tells me how to type in a "spoiler" line
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Post by BlackStoneNY on Mar 18, 2005 19:36:14 GMT
Okay figured it out. Bellow is the answer. Now looking back on it, I can see the cuteness and artfullness in it, it just requires the reader to make a major assumption, something most kids won't be able to make.
Start off with the assumption she has 0, then work the riddle out mathmatically like I did and you end up with the answer 0=0. Now a long time reader of LW also knows that sometimes when using the Random Number chart that 0=10. Since there is no section 0 in the book, the reader should turn to section 10. Like I said cute, but bad on him for using it. I am wondering how many people did this riddle without cheating
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Post by Zipp on Mar 18, 2005 19:45:12 GMT
If you solve it mathematically, you essentially get x=x which means in roman numerals that the answer is 10
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Post by Sol on Mar 18, 2005 21:11:46 GMT
Zipp,
Right - if X is always the answer, and in Roman Numerals X is 10, then turn to Page 10. I never thought of it that way, but yes - that works as well!
BlackStone,
Nice work. And I certainly did not get it when I played through. In fact, I just fought Shamath - "Here's YOUR ANSWER!" I won, too!
Anyone know which Interview Joe explains this in? Someone hinted that he explains it... in that old thread. I don't think I have seen it tho!
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Post by Zipp on Mar 18, 2005 21:28:09 GMT
No I din't know it when I played through either. I cheated to find out the answer and was flummoxed when it apparantly didn't make sense.
I think maybe there was another thing at work here. And that was that Shamath was a demon. She doesn't want you to pass, she is simply tormenting you with false hopes.
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Post by Relenoir on Mar 19, 2005 5:23:29 GMT
Someday, hopefully soon, we'll see a concrete answer from the man himself, explaining what he intended it to be. ;D
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