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Post by Black Cat on May 16, 2023 15:52:59 GMT
And it's always a great motivation for the players to find extraordinary items or equipment. It's okay to not agree (I don't agree with the punishment thing), but just that part of your message is exactly why players who have not played all the other gamebooks should have a better chance to get special stuff that veterans have a difficult time to get: to keep them motivate to read the rest of the series. Giving motivation only to veteran players and always keeping the rookies in a difficult situation is not great to expand readership of the series.
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Post by kraanlord on May 16, 2023 16:07:01 GMT
And this is exactly where the cat bites its own tail. The motivation of old readers/players is also important. If a series is getting boring the fan base will lose interest. So a good balance is important. It's fine if you defend newcomers and I understand it from your point of view. But I can argue also in the opposite way. If you read book series and it' s not well written in later books most people will stop reading. Its more important to create the feeling to be the main protagonist in a great story and not to benefit a specific group here. It' s of course difficult but possible.
But let's come back to subject: Definitive Edition vs Original The DE books differ in some way to previous editions. As i have explained in my previous post you can use now the brotherhood amulet to get a new random number once per book. How would you handle bad luck situations where you will get later something great (yeah...the Kagonite chainmail). Would you say - no i don't use my amulett because the Kagonite chainmail belongs to newcomers. Or would you try your luck again to have a bad luck dice throw?
I have tried the first 5 books and have to give a big compliment to the DE version. It hasn't been completely reworked, but targeted at the right places. The new drawings in Book 1 seems to merge with Gary Chalk paintings in following books. Of course there are still open questions e.g.healing and missing meals but the new optional rules will support all players - new ones and veteran players. And now I'm coming back to my point at the beginning of my post. It feels much better than before and it's very balanced now for ALL players.
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Post by kraanlord on May 18, 2023 7:56:11 GMT
If we get the Dagger of Vashna in book 4 it is mentioned in section 350: Using it in combat will add 3 points to CS but reduce Endurance total by 3. Does anyone know if the reduction of Endurance has to be applied per fight ? per round ? or is the reduction a permanent one because it is mentioned here Endurance total (like Helshezag) ?
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Post by captaino on Jun 11, 2023 20:45:20 GMT
If we get the Dagger of Vashna in book 4 it is mentioned in section 350: Using it in combat will add 3 points to CS but reduce Endurance total by 3. Does anyone know if the reduction of Endurance has to be applied per fight ? per round ? or is the reduction a permanent one because it is mentioned here Endurance total (like Helshezag) ? The EP reduction reduces your current/max EP by 3 as long as you carry it (so a one time reduction). If it's confiscated or you don't carry it during an adventure, you regain the 3 EP. I'm 100% on that one.
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Post by wisestrider on Nov 18, 2023 3:04:44 GMT
I think it's interesting to also note that the paperback and hardback editions of Book 1 are very different.
The hardback version of the DE is based on the extended 550 section Mongoose version as noted in the opening post of this thread.
But the paperback version of the DE is based on the 350 section original edition - but with the following changes I've noticed compared to the original edition of this book from the 80's.
The rule changes (for character creation and the Crystal Star Pendant) are the same as noted in the opening post of this thread.
You no longer start with a random item scavenged from the ruins of the fallen monastery.
You can't get a Kai Shield (that's a unique addition to the 550 section edition - see my next post for why I mention this).
The first section now lists some of the fallen Kai (those you fight alongside in the extended 550 section hardback edition).
The description of Alema bridge has been changed by incorporating elements of the grander description from the 550 section extended hardback edition (with the Alema Mitre and Lone Wolf moving stealthily from tower to tower as he makes his way towards the main battle).
Prince Pelathars sword is now magic (giving +2CS and counting as a sword or broadsword) - you have to leave it with the Prince's body after fighting the Gourgaz.
The description when entering Holmgard includes additions from the extended 550 section hardback edition (with the Holmgard Pale shanty town clustered near the entrance) - section 129.
Section 350 includes Madelon (who asks you your name - Lone Wolf renames himself in this section, wereas in the original I think he does this in section 1? But my memory is a bit hazy on this bit) from the extended 550 section hardback edition.
In addition Book 4 includes the mention of Madelon being named after the King's daughter from the Mongoose edition.
And Book 5 (and Book 9) decouples knowing Banedon from possessing the Crystal Star Pendant - instead asking if you've ever visited the relevant locations - finally fixing continuity for those who managed to lose the Pendant (usually in Book 2).
I'd be interested in knowing which version of the Book 2 Magic Spear / Noodnics / Helghast Tunnel solution is in the DE but haven't had a chance to look myself yet - I know it was changed for the Mongoose edition, did that change stick in the DE or change back, or change to something new?
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Post by wisestrider on Nov 18, 2023 4:15:03 GMT
Also the Magnakai rules sections have many interesting additions/changes.
Character creation - if starting a new character in any of the Magnakai books (6-12) you can add 15 & 25 to your random number for CS & EP respectively (instead of 10 & 20 as used in the Kai series - Books 1-5).
If carrying forward a character from the Kai series you can, at the start of any Magnakai book, select one or two random numbers - if either or both is higher than the original pick for uour CS, EP or both, back when you created your character, you can recalculate your stats using these new numbers - you can only do this once during the Magnakai series (Books 6-12).
The Lore Circle of Solaris now gives +2CS & +3EP (used to be +1CS & +3EP).
Lore Circle of Light now gives +4EP (used to be +3EP).
Disciplines needed for each Lore Circle & the stat boosts for the other 2 are unchanged.
There is now a list of Special Items that can be carried forward from the Kai series (like has always been in the Grand Master series to carry forward from Books 1-12) -
(Kai) Shield - not sure why it is written this way but suspect it means you can carry forward either a Kai Shield (which is interestingly only available in the hardback version of the Book 1 DE) or normal Shield (which has the same rules as a Kai Shield, but is more widely available in Books 2-5), not both. The other option I'd that only the Kai Shield can be carried forward to the Magnakai series - and normal Shields are lost.
Crystal Star Pendant - as noted earlier in this thread now has special rules.
Helmet
Silver Helmet - does the fact these are listed separately potentially suggests only those who play the hardback version of Book 1 have a chance to bring a Shield into the Magnakai series from earlier books?
Chainmail Waistcoat - it's now in the Books, not just the newsletters, that this can be combined with the Padded Leather Waistcoat
(Battered) Padded Leather Waistcoat -adding to the confusion about the Shield (there are various points during the Kai series at which you can pick up a Padded Leather Waistcoat, and one place to get a Battered Padded Leather Waistcoat, but both items have the same rules, so I assume you can bring either, not both & the Helmets are listed separately because one gives CS & the other EP - so you can bring forward both, but only wear one at a time?).
Firesphere - has dropped the "Kalte" from it's name.
Dagger of Vashna - as noted earlier in this thread now has special rules.
Herb Pad - not sure where you get this from? It's a new item for these new editions I think? Don't know what it does. Does anyone know?
Canteen of Water - think this was an item you could get in one of the original editions of Book 4 or 5, but it had no use / no special rules - don't know what this does, and not sure which Book it's found in. Does anyone know?
Jewelled Mace - as noted earlier in this thread now has special rules.
There are now official rules for using Kai Disciplines without needing the Magnakai version (affects Weaponskill, Healing & Mind Blast). You cannot use Kai & Magnakai Disciplines of the same type at the same time (Weaponskill & Weaponmastery, Healing & Curing, Mind Blast & Psi Surge) - their bonuses do not stack.
Healing can be capped to 10 EP, Curing & Healing together can be capped to 15 EP & Curing can also allow you to take a Herb Pouch Special Item (an option added to the starting equipment choices at the start of each Magnakai Book - let's you drink Potions, or use Seeds during combat using the "escape from combat" rules - but you drink a portion instead of escaping or attacking during that round of combat - holds up to 6 Herbs or Seed like special items).
My reading of Healing & Curing is you can either - Cap Healing to 10 EP & Curing is unlimited Cap Healing to 10 EP & Curing gives an extra 5 EP (so 15 EP total) Don't allow Healing & Curing is unlimited Don't allow Healing & Curing is capped to 15 EP The Herb Pouch option can be combined with any of the above Or Healing is capped to 10 EP & Curing only gives access to the Herb Pouch Don't allow Healing & Curing only gives access to the Herb Pouch
It's not really very clear how the 3 "Rule Options" work but this is how I make sense of it.
Fireseed - 3 take up one slot in your Herb Pouch / 1 Special Item slot & have a new rule which lets you throw one at the start of combat instead of drinking a single potion (and during combat using the Herb Pouch rules from Curing) - pick a random number, take away the "tens" digit of the enemies CS and the enemy loses that much EP 0=0 - does not work against fire or water enemies.
Lantern doesn't need a tinderbox to light.
In Book 10 - if you have Psi Screen and have reached the rank of Mentora the EP reduction for carrying the Dagger of Vashna is reduced to 2.
I also assume the Magnakai Books will also have new items / rules / narrative flourishes throughout.
I know the reference to Lone Wolf's "shining white skin" has been cut from Book 7 - but suspect they'll be other minor changes & additions along the lines of the paperback version of Book 1, in addition to rule changes.
It might be interesting to see a list of fights that mention the Somerswerd - as that's one of the new play options, how restrictive does this turn out to be?
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Post by Ofecks on Nov 18, 2023 16:48:41 GMT
Herb Pad - not sure where you get this from? It's a new item for these new editions I think? Don't know what it does. Does anyone know? Book 5. Sewer route. You loot it from one of your pursuers after combat, should you bump into them and win the fight. Taking possession of it is a one-time 1 EP restore. It's also flagged as a potion/alchemical item for the purposes of a series-spanning achievement in the Seventh Sense playing aid software.
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Post by wisestrider on Nov 20, 2023 0:08:35 GMT
Herb Pad - not sure where you get this from? It's a new item for these new editions I think? Don't know what it does. Does anyone know? Book 5. Sewer route. You loot it from one of your pursuers after combat, should you bump into them and win the fight. Taking possession of it is a one-time 1 EP restore. It's also flagged as a potion/alchemical item for the purposes of a series-spanning achievement in the Seventh Sense playing aid software. Interesting, that's a small effect & not something on going to suggest it's worth carrying forward to the Magnakai series - there's no obvious benefits to doing so. I imagine then that it's likely they've added a bonus along the lines of reducing or remove EP loss in Magnakai adventures where the existing text had you lose something for wrenching/foul smells. Off the top of my head possibly when going through sewers, swamps (Danarg & Hellswamp), the Dark Lands, or when encountering/fighting certain enemies. Will be interesting to see where it's referenced because I don't expect it to be listed as one of the handful of Special Items you can carry forward from the Kai adventures if it does nothing. But I still expect it to have minor impact overall - just a "nice to have" - I'll update if I find anything when I read them (currently waiting for 11 & 12 in paperback before doing a playthrough of the new editions which should highlight other changes).
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Post by wisestrider on Nov 20, 2023 0:38:27 GMT
One thing I have found flicking through some of these book's is that Dungeons of Torgar includes another chance to pick up a canteen of water (still not sure where you get this in the Kai adventures, or if this turns up in several other books). Section 145.
Rules are - When you would lose EP for not having a Meal, reduce the loss to 2 EP - can only be used once but can be refilled if you have a source of water (such as by visiting a city, or between adventures).
Whether the refill opportunities will be called out, or for the player to identify will be interesting to look out for.
And a couple of other bits from other books -
In Book 8 there's a fight with a monster that eats blunt weapons - the text now specifically says the monster can't destroy the Bronin Warhammer (get in Book 6, gives +1CS, or +2CS against enemies wearing Plate Armour & is a non-magical Weapon like Special Item) or the Jewelled Mace in this way & it spits those weapons out instead. I don't think these weapons were protected like this in the original? - Section 187.
And in Book 6 Altan also now gives you a "Lesser Special Bow" (Toa Longbow +1RDN when shooting bow, stacks with the Weaponmastery bonus for +4RDN) if you trade the Silver Bow of Duadon (+3RDN & stacks with Weaponmastery for +6RDN) for his horse. Section 212.
When I get round to my playthrough I'll add anything else I notice, but it won't be comprehensive, just what I notice on my path through each book, if anything stands out.
All these little extra rules & bonus items are a good addition to me, especially as it looks to make playthroughs that use the Sommerswerd restriction (to only use in fights when it is mentioned in the text) much more interesting with these other, weaker weapon options.
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Post by wisestrider on Jan 11, 2024 23:20:51 GMT
OK, so there's a pretty huge change in Book 6.
Now when travelling with Cyrilus he is no longer auto abducted when you stop for a side activity.
So after the Archery Contest (whether you win or lose) you are asked to pick a random number - Section 183 & Section 252 both now end with - pick 0-2 sends to Section 33 (Cyrilus and horses are missing) - pick 3+ go to Section 210 (less than a mile from the village you reach Castle Taunor - same Section you reach if you skip the tournament completely).
Similar thing happens after entering Castle Taunor - when you leave at Section 112 picking 0-2 sends to 338 (Cyrilus abducted), 3+ sends to 134 (you reach Denka Gate and can enter Bread Hut or Ale Hut) - deduct 2 from your random number if you entered the archery contest.
If you leave Castle Taunor later - by Section 24, the number picks are 0-3 sends to Section 338 & 4+ to 134 - again deduct 2 if entered the Archery Contest.
He still automatically gets taken at Denka Gate.
So you no longer need to pick between the Silver Bow of Duadon & the Bronin Warhammer and no longer have a chunk of the book you never see if you always at least try to get the Silver Bow as one of the few Special Items you can carry forward to the Grand Master series.
Also in Book 8 when facing the Helghast Monk - Section 113 - it gives you the option to fight if you have the Sommerswerd, Dagger of Vashna, Jewelled Mace, or a Blue Steel Spear (not sure where you get this Spear from) - go to Section 30, in original I think it may have been the Sommerswerd only allowed this option?
The other options at Section 113 remain the same (if have Divination & rank of Tutelary you use Paido's Blue Steel Sword to fight at Section 183 - if none of the above you die at Section 75).
Also the Crystal Star Pendant can stand in for Divination when the Helghast Monk first enters the room at Section 336 (letting you turn to Section 343 to detect the presence of a "Great Evil") - fitting with the Lore of what they were originally created for (I assume it does similar in some sections of Book 2 with Sixth Sense options, but haven't checked yet).
Nice to see other/smaller Special Items have more utility in the new editions without rewriting things wholesale - just little tweaks to better keep things consistent from Book to Book & with the established Lore.
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Post by kinai on Jan 13, 2024 13:07:05 GMT
It's not punishment, it's more like giving a chance to players who have not played all the other books to get something that will actually help them get to the end of the adventure. A veteran player doesn't really need the Kagonite Chainmail at that point. I disagree. The +3CS of the Kagonite Chainmail is very useful in the Grand Master serie books.
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Post by kinai on Jan 13, 2024 13:11:47 GMT
Also in Book 8 when facing the Helghast Monk - Section 113 - it gives you the option to fight if you have the Sommerswerd, Dagger of Vashna, Jewelled Mace, or a Blue Steel Spear (not sure where you get this Spear from) - go to Section 30, in original I think it may have been the Sommerswerd only allowed this option? In the original, if you don't have the Sommerswerd, you have to pick up Paido sword that is magical and can kill the Helghast.
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Post by kinai on Jan 13, 2024 13:17:07 GMT
I have the new editions of Lobo Solitario in spanish. One interesting change that I found in Book 3 is when you find the two Ice Barbarians elders in the cave. Originally, if you wanted the Kalte Firesphere, you had to attack and kill them. Now, if you attack them, you will lose the Kalte Firesphere. You have to allow them to run away to get it. Obviously, the change is so that Lone Wolf doesn't have to kill two elder men to get it (Killing two elders didn't seem to be very goody, I suppose. ).
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Post by Ofecks on Jan 13, 2024 17:20:04 GMT
Originally, if you wanted the Kalte Firesphere, you had to attack and kill them. That's incorrect. You can also get it by saying hello and they run away. www.projectaon.org/en/xhtml/lw/03tcok/sect295.htmMaybe you're thinking of the Blue Stone Triangle? One of them is wearing it and they must be killed if you want to pick it up there.
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Post by kinai on Jan 13, 2024 18:30:13 GMT
That's incorrect. You can also get it by saying hello and they run away. www.projectaon.org/en/xhtml/lw/03tcok/sect295.htmMaybe you're thinking of the Blue Stone Triangle? One of them is wearing it and they must be killed if you want to pick it up there. You are right. In the original: - if you try to talk, you get the Kalte Firesphere, but - If you attack them, you get the Kalte Firesphere and the Blue Stone Triangle.
Now: - If you try to talk, you get the Kalte Firesphere and the Blue Stone Triangle, but - If you attack them, you only get the Blue Stone Triangle because half of the Kalte Firesphere has fallen in a crevasse. Bad luck, really. I think that I prefer the new version more.
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