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Post by Sol on Feb 1, 2005 16:17:20 GMT
- Never got beyond the Chaosmaster... If you did without saves you are a shining example for me and I know that my quest isn't impossible. Chaosmaster is tough to beat. Here are the factors: 1) - the sad truth is that size does matter. You need a nice high CS to beat him. This usually means a high starting score. Don't forget your Silver Helmet, your WeaponMastery with the Sword, the Shield, Psi-Surge, and of course all the LoreCircle bonuses you can get (Spirit, Solaris, Fire should be obtained by Book 11). 2) - You will also want an Alether potion to help you. (FACTORS THAT DIE-HARDS MIGHT USE, BUT LOSE SLEEP OVER) 3) - Leave the Sommerswerd in Safekeeping at the start of Book 10. Chaos Master will be weaker if you do this - and by more than 8 points. Some Die-Hards argue about this - why would Lone Wolf ever leave behind his best weapon? On the other hand, the rules do allow you to leave items in Safekeeping, so technically it is OK. 4) - Use the Ironheart Broadsword. If you can find this, your fight against Chaos Master is MUCH easier. This only comes into play if you do not have the Sommerswerd. Again, some Die-Hards might scoff at the idea of leaving the Sommerswerd behind for a "cheesy" advantage. 5) - Swallow LOTS of Alether. The book does not seem to limit you on how much Alether you can drink before a single battle, so take LOTS. You can have also a handful of Alether Berries with it (just one of these is allowed). Die-Hards disagree as to whether it is OK for Lone Wolf to drink several potions before a battle, but there seems to be no rule against it. 6) - Leave Backpack Items in the Monastery. If you do this, you will be able to use the Alether +4 from Caverns of Kalte, plus any other Alether you found in Book 6 or earlier. The books do not say that you can do this, so it might make Die-Hards squeamish. However, Joe does give his thumbs-up for this in one of the newsletters, so it should be OK. This way you avoid losing them all at the end of Book 7 when you are forced to lose your backpack. (Factors that Die-Hards would probably consider cheating) 7) - Stack Weaponskill bonuses. If you have a +2 WS in the sword, and a +4 for WeaponMastery in the Sword, why not give yourself a +6? Nowhere in the books does it say you cannot do this, but Dever said in one of his newsletters that you can't "stack" in this way, so that's why this is more like a House Rule. 8) - Dual Weapons. Imagine that Lone Wolf can fight with two weapons at once. If you have two swords and if you have WeaponMastery in the Sword, why not count the bonus twice? The book is vague on this, and many point out that it says, "Give yourself the bonus if you are carrying the appropriate weapon," so this is a tempting possibility. You could have a +8 instead of a +4. Often players consider it unreasonable to use a shield while using Dual-Weapons. Some also consider Lone Wolf to be too inexperienced to use Dual Weapons before he reaches the Magnakai series. Die-Hards argue about this quite a bit - some are very much for it, many are very much against. 9) - Drinking healing potions during a battle. This is not allowed if you read the rules to the letter. On the other hand, why can't he? In many RPGs, characters are allowed to drink potions in the middle of a battle, so why not Lone Wolf? This may be up to personal taste to use this House Rule, but Die-Hards definitely consider this cheating. 10) - Save Points - Video games use these, why not players of Lone Wolf? Usually you would consider your character to be "saved" at the end of a book if he completed it successfully, although other methods are possible (such as a limited number of saves, but anywhere in the book). Die-Hards usually consider this cheating, since Death means Game Over, but the more casual player will reason: "If I did this once, I have already proven it possible, so I should be able to try again." For the more casual player who does not wish to spend a lifetime playing, this is reasonable. 11) - Do-Over - Allow yourself a certain number of Extra-Lives during the whole series. Definitely cheating, but on the other hand, Alyss is on Lone Wolf's side. The number of do-overs can be whatever seems reasonable, like 1 or 3. Good luck! Sol
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Post by Sol on Feb 1, 2005 16:40:48 GMT
Hey, Sol, I know you want to keep it 'hardcore' but actually starting some new "raw recruit" Lone Wolfs (Wolves?) from Book 13 would help answer a few questions about how do-able the Grand Master series is without all the goodies from earlier books. So if you could see fit to also starting 10 new guys at Book 13, that could make for some interesting comparisons . . . Outspaced, A very good point! I did consider creating some "raw recruits" in Book 13 to use as scouts, etc, to help my "pure" Grand Masters finish all 20 books. Hmmm...
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Post by Sol on Feb 1, 2005 16:46:18 GMT
So in the end you did it the 'Team'-Way, or did I get you wrong? That's not harcore enough for me personally.. LongHairy, Yes - I eventually went with the Team Play. If you want to read more about exactly how I do Team Play (you may find it fairly hard core) I have a few posts on this earlier in this very topic. Cheers! Sol
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Post by Zipp on Feb 1, 2005 17:28:45 GMT
I'd say it's pretty hard core, since you still beat every enemy more than once, and don't fight two against one at any point. That's how I'd do it, stacking kai in battle, but Sol is doing the crazy style.
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Post by longhairyuppiescum on Feb 1, 2005 17:45:51 GMT
Chaosmaster is tough to beat. Here are the factors ... Thanks for the summary/wrap-up of the 'CM'-Issue. Here's what I'm thinking: (You know I'm harcode...) 1) + 2) is of course OK. 3) + 4) I will consider if I dont' come up with something housemade (Of course that will be real ceating! ) (I don't know the book so well yet to decide..) 5) Nah! Hardcore: Only one potion. - Ever seen a Kai-Lord that overdosed? (A really embarrassing sight!) 6) I consider OK, as long as it's not everything useful to be stashed. (He wouldn't enter CD without at least most of his useful (backpack-) equipment..) from 7) on I consider it plain cheating.. ( I don't know anybody named Alyss* and I hopefully will be playing my whole life! ) *Though I do know where this name comes from (The opinion expressed in this post is subject to change during the next decades of my life.)
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Post by longhairyuppiescum on Feb 1, 2005 18:09:37 GMT
... (you may find it fairly hard core) ... Fairly. - Yes. But not really. I looked over the Team-Method (-posts) earlier. And (if I understood the practice right) the one thing I consider to be 'softcore' (- no offence intended!) is the use of 'Scouts'. This seems to me like reading ahead. (Shameful practice! - Against the core rules of good ol' solo-adventuring.) But nonetheless it's a real nice rules-variation. Creative and fun! - Isn't that whats gaming all about? - It's just not 'hardcore' (in my point of view). Cheers! (Cheers.. ? - Why do I think of Borbrew, Kourshah and Wanlo? BTW: What do you prefer?)
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Post by Sol on Feb 1, 2005 19:26:05 GMT
Re: I looked over the Team-Method (-posts) earlier. And (if I understood the practice right) the one thing I consider to be 'softcore' (- no offence intended!) is the use of 'Scouts'. This seems to me like reading ahead. (Shameful practice! - Against the core rules of good ol' solo-adventuring.) Yes, I have to admit it is absolutely accurate. I figure that if I was playing the games one after another, then I'd be taking notes anyway, so I "get away" with it. Heh heh! And no offense taken. To each Hard-Corist his own! And BTW, don't drink the Kourshah - it tastes like horse piss. I would go for the Wanlo - Bor-Brew is too scary!
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Post by longhairyuppiescum on Feb 1, 2005 19:56:46 GMT
To each Hard-Corist his own! I drink on that! - Kourshah! (Did you ever tasted Kourshah? HP? - No way! I love it!) But Wanlo is a great choice too. And a big strong kai-warrior should not be afraid of some Boom-Boom (äh.. sorry - wrong movie -) Bor-Brew. (OK - I admit it, I'm not too choosy when it comes to beverages..) ;D
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Post by Parsion on Feb 1, 2005 22:32:17 GMT
* peeks into thread cautiously *
Is there room for another Kai-Lord?
Being german, I always wondered how the english originals would read. Thanks to Project Aon I can now find out and since I have thought about a complete read-through of 1-15 (probably 16 till I get there), this might be the right time.
Folkert
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Post by Peregrine on Feb 1, 2005 22:35:37 GMT
10) - Save Points - Video games use these, why not players of Lone Wolf? Usually you would consider your character to be "saved" at the end of a book if he completed it successfully, although other methods are possible (such as a limited number of saves, but anywhere in the book). Die-Hards usually consider this cheating, since Death means Game Over, but the more casual player will reason: "If I did this once, I have already proven it possible, so I should be able to try again." For the more casual player who does not wish to spend a lifetime playing, this is reasonable. Well, I don't know about this one. I do have designs on a true hardcore win one day, and so save points are out for that, but I wouldn't call it cheating. I'd stick this back up in the 'losing sleep' category, myself. Besides, "If I did this once, I have already proven it possible, so I should be able to try again" isn't really the best reason. (There's another thread devoted to picking apart the playing style of someone who uses just this argument. ;D) Personally I'd say "If I did this once, it's going to start irritating me if I do it again... and again..." That's why I'd make the fundamental division one between hardcore and fun. I consider certain things to be truly cheating because they serve neither purpose. Weaponskill bonus stacking, for instance, I consider to be pure munchkin. YMMV.
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Post by Zipp on Feb 2, 2005 5:16:43 GMT
I think save points are for those playing to get the story. We don't want to have to start aaaall over again. It's like if every time you forgot what page you were on in a book you decided to start at the begining and go until you didn't recognize the text anymore.
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Post by Nathan P. Mahney on Feb 2, 2005 5:46:34 GMT
Here is the latest update on my progress, and I figure that now is an opportune time to lay out my personal rules interpretations.
1) No stacking of Weaponskill/mastery or Healing/Curing bonuses.
2) Only one potion can be consumed before combat. The same goes for Alether Berries, and I don't allow combining a potion and berries either.
3) I enforce the 12 Special Item limit from the beginning.
4) I allow Safekeeping from Book 5 on.
5) I allow myself to dual-wield, at the expense of my Shield. Can't beat that Sommerswerd/Dagger of Vashna combo! I even allow it at the Kai level, because it's really no better than using a Shield, and occasionally it gives me a little bonus in Book 1 if I'm lucky.
6) When I die, I restart from the beginning. (Only for the purpose of this quest, though, a pure cheat-free completion of the Lone Wolf Saga.)
7) I only allow Healing to heal damage lost due to Combat.
8) I allow myself to drink Laumspur (and other healing) potions at any time when I'm not in Combat.
8) I Mindblast Altan, while at the same time distracting him with the glare from my Silver Helmet!
OK, so how fared Lone Wolf VIII? Let's just say that I'm probably going to have to brush up on my Roman numerals...
Lone Wolf VIII started with a CS of 19 and 28 EP. Hoo-ah! Scores I was stoked with. The Kai series I could do in my sleep barring unfortunate Random Numbers, and this time I got through it with ease.
For my Magnakai Disciplines I went with the Lore Circle of Fire, and then focussed on building up the Lore Circle of the Spirit - gotta have those CS bonuses!
Book 6 was a walkover, and I even beat Altan quite easily to get the Silver Bow.
Book 7 was also pretty simple. By this point I'd stocked up about 5 Alether Potions and close to 20 various healing potions, so I took a few into Castle Death. The Alether even came in handy while I was weaponless in the maze.
Book 8 was easy - not even the Gnaag Helghast gave me trouble. I got the Grey Crystal Ring, though I honestly have no idea what it's for.
Book 9 is where things get a bit hairier. The body of the book not so much - it's frightfully easy at this point. As everyone knows, Zakhan Kimah is the sticking point. I went in with the Sommerswerd, as there's just no way I'm staking my life on throwing the Dagger of Vashna. Alas I was killed by Kimah, that sumbeech. I take solace in this fact - while I was on 0 EP, he was on -1 - I killed him deader! I was only at a -3 Combat Ratio, but that was enough. Arrgh, why did I have to save the +4 Alether for the Chaos Master?
Lone Wolf: 0, Durenese Gardeners: 2, Drakkarim: 1, Sommlending Roof-Tilers: 1, Parsion: 1, Bandit Sniper: 1, Stupid Itikar: 1 , Zakhan Kimah: 1
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Post by Sol on Feb 2, 2005 7:55:30 GMT
And mine:
KAI-TEAM-TEN Progress
My goal: to finish all 20 books without cheating. All Teams Completed: The Captives of Kaag
Total Kai Remaining: 3
Lost in Sommerlund: 3 Lost in Durenor: 1 Lost in Kalte: 5 Lost in Vassagonia: 5 Lost in Castle Death: 1 Lost in Tharro: 5 Lost in Tahou: 2 Lost at Cetza: 4 Lost in Ruel: 2
Important Progress: Lived! Took Kai Screen.
Survived: Avatarus, Beat Down, Iron Wolf
Best CS: Iron Wolf (56) Worst CS: Avatarus, Beat Down (53)
Tweaks: ***Keys, Whistles can count as Special Items. ***Weapon-Like-Special-Items may be kept in a Weapons-slot. ***Stackable Discipline Bonuses.
SPOILERS and NOTES:
Not much to say. Fights were tough but not overwhelming: I fought vs. CS 37, 44, 48, finally the Zavaghar, CS 52. That was the tough fight since it was a 0 Combat Ratio and it had 60 EP, but I was amazed to discover that it is almost impossible to lose this fight with Banedon's help.
What shocked me was the possibly high number of instant-deaths that I had to roll. I sent Beat Down up the stairs where he was confronted by the swinging log trap. He avoided this, but I figured this must have been an instant-death (don't know! Scary!) Then I had Avatarus climb up the side of the tower - another roll! I did not fall, but if I had, I bet that would have been fatal, too (don't know). I had my Grand Huntmastery, a high EP, and a Rope to raise my scores, but no instant success was possible.
Then at the end of the book, the Giaks fire all those arrows at you as well as the giant ballista bolt. I think you have to go this way to win - I may be wrong - but this is a 1 in 10 instant death as well. Joe, whaddya doing to me? Must there be an Instant Death Roll to finish every Grand Master Book? My luck held out, however, and all three Grand Masters flew to freedom.
Next: The Darke Crusade - I have never completed this and have read it only one time ever before (forgotten it all). This is soon to change - the Grand Masters are coming!
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Post by Sol on Feb 2, 2005 8:02:58 GMT
As everyone knows, Zakhan Kimah is the sticking point. I went in with the Sommerswerd, as there's just no way I'm staking my life on throwing the Dagger of Vashna. Alas I was killed by Kimah, that sumbeech. I take solace in this fact - while I was on 0 EP, he was on -1 - I killed him deader! Nathan, Good for you, Savior of Tahou! Absolutely the city will never forget you! It was VERY cool reading your "terms" for playing - you are VERY Hard Core, man! Probably harder than me! Go Nathan! I see that you do go with the Dual Weapons - I can't see how a guy can hope to get through without SOME kind of boost - I mean, you (CS 19 base) vs. the Zakahn and STILL at -3... if that is not evidence for the need for Dual Weapons, don't know what is! PS - I always Mindblast Altan and use my Silver Helmet, too.
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Post by Nathan P. Mahney on Feb 2, 2005 11:05:47 GMT
Well, I certainly feel hardcore right now, with the hurt and the dying and the WHY ME GOD WHY? but I persevere. I only dual-wield because it's never been clarified by Joe, and you really do need all the help you can get. I'm tempted to ditch the Silver Bow next time and go fo the Bronin Warhammer for that extra +1.
Excellent job on completing Captives, as well: I'd hate for you to have to start over from scratch! I've only ever made it to Plague Lords myself, and I didn't last long there.
Anyway, the adventures of Lone Wolf continue! Lone Wolf IX had a CS of 15 and an EP of 22, so I decided to do some things that I haven't done in a while, figuring this guy was a write-off. I got picked up by the pirates in Book 2, which is always a bit of fun if you don't mind losing your gear. I took the Viad Glacier route in Book 3, which I NEVER do. Made it all the way through the Myjaviks, and even somehow survived getting poisoned by a Kalkoth (I didn't think it was possible!). I also went the other way inside Ikaya, the path that doesn't lead to the Silver Helmet. I ended up in some room with an exploding rock (10 EP! Yowtch!), and then got caught escaping by Ice Barbarians, who slaughtered me.
Addendum: Lone Wolf X was a short-lived fellow. With a CS of 10 and 26 EP, I wasn't expecting him to last long, but I was keen to see how far I could get. Not very, to tell you the truth: I was killed by... the Burrowcrawler!!! I was fighting it at a Combat Ratio of -10, which is never, ever good.
Lone Wolf: 0, Durenese Gardeners: 2, Drakkarim: 1, Sommlending Roof-Tilers: 1, Parsion: 1, Bandit Sniper: 1, Stupid Itikar: 1 , Zakhan Kimah: 1 , Ice Barbarians: 1, Burrowcrawler: 1
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