LWMP: Lumping enemies together

[askhati]

Following a conversation on the Mongoose boards, I came up with a rough 'rule of thumb' for lumping enemies together in the same way that the gamebooks did.

- take strongest attacker of type X
- all other attackers of type X contribute the following:

TIER I:
- 1/5 CS, 1/5 EP

TIER II:
- 1/4 CS, 1/10 EP

Any thoughts from guys that have already done similar work?

[Zipp]

I don't understand the notation. do you mean that they contribute 1 out of 5 possible total CS bonus? Also, why does tier 2 have lower CS but higher END? And what is the difference between a Tier I and Tier II enemy?

[egleris]

I think you misunderstood what Askhati was saying, Zipp. Having done the same math at some point, I know what he's talking about!

Say you have five giaks, and all of them have 15 CS and 25 END. To get the attack value of them if presented as a group, you add one fifth (1 part out of 5, or, as Askathi wrote it, 1/5) of the CS of all the additional ones after the first, and one fifth of the END.

So, the starting exemplar has 15 CS and 25 END, and you must add 3 CS and 5 END for each new giak you're adding, in this case, four.

15 +3 +3 +3 +3 = 27 CS; 25 +5 +5 +5 +5 = 45 END. So, you present the enemy as a single one like this:

Giak attack party: 27 CS, 45 END. It also allows you to retro-enigeneer the CS and END real value of the single members from the total, assuming they all have the same values; the recipe though would work even for enemies with different values.

To exemplify, let's say we're creating enemies for a tier II character, and we opt for a group of five Helghasts, with the following stats

Helghast 1: CS 26, END 37
Helghast 2, 3: CS 22, END 40
Helghast 4, 5: CS 24, END 35

Here, you need take one fourth of the CS, and one tenth of the END; and you always use the stronger Helghast as the one who keep full values, so:

26 +5,5 +5,5 +6 +6 = 49 CS
37 +4 +4 + 3,5 = 49 END (rounded up)

Wich say that a group of five helghast is slighty harder to fight than the Chaos-Master (2 CS more) but will go down far faster (19 END less), which seems about correct.

I hope this is what you were talking about, right Akshati? At least, it matches with the equation I retro-engineered when I tried to guess the related strenghts of the single enemies as part of a group in the Magnakai series.

[huanchoo]

Hmmm... just one thing. How do you differentiate between a Tier I & a Tier II opponent?

[egleris]

I'm not completely certain, but I think the Tier to reer to the players, not the enemies. So, if your player is using a Tier I character - say, a Kai Journeyman - then the power level of the enemies he faces must be appropriate to his own, and you'll use the tier I version.

If, instead, your character is a Tier II - for example, a Magnakai Principalin - then the enemies stats would be calculated with the tier II, and so result stronger because the character itself is stonger.

So, to keep my example from before, the same five Helghast would be presented as a 42 CS, 67 END. This would be a longer but far easier fight for the Tier II character; but since these are stats for the Tier I, they're instead an invincible enemy, like five Helghast at that level should be.

I am reasonably certain that the Tiers refer to the players, but probably is better to wait for Askhati to confirm that!

[askhati]

Repost of the original post:

How about these as a rough guide for lumping:

1) Take strongest (highest CS) character
2) other characters OF SAME TYPE contribute 1/5 CS and 1/3 EP (all fractions rounded down)

Eg. 3 Giaks of CS 14/13/13 and EP 17/18/17

Base: CS 14, EP 17
+ second: CS 13/5=2, EP 18/3=6
+ third: CS 13/4=2, EP 17/3=5

Final target
3 Giaks: CS 18, EP 28

FIGHT SEPARATELY:
If you fight them separately, each Giak gets +4CS. You will take more damage per round than against the lumped opponent, initially, but as you kill off the weaker opponents the other opponents will see a corresponding drop in their CS - which will then be reflected in a lower damage taken per round as well.

FIGHT LUMP:
You will take less damage per round (one CS 18 opponent instead of three opponents at CS 18/17/17), but will still take high damage right until the last round as there will be no drop in CS as total EP drops.

Another example could be from LW 10, the first Death Knight you encounter under the bridge:

Death Knight CS 24, EP 38 (section 180)
Lumping contribution:
- CS = 24/5=4
- EP = 38/3=12

So 3 Death Knights: CS 32, EP 62

Compare this to LW 10-320, when you engage the following:
Elite Death Knights: CS 42, EP 48

This gives no indication to their number, but the following note can be made: if you chose to shoot one with your bow, their stats will compare thus:
Elite Death Knights (no bow): CS 42, EP 48
Elite Death Knights (1 shot): CS 38, EP 45

This implies an Elite Death Knight contributes CS 6, EP 3 to his mates. EXtrapolating backwards to the Death Knight under the bridge:
- CS bonus = 6/24 = 1/4
- EP bonus = 3/38 = roughly 1/10, rounded down.

Revisiting the Giaks and the Death Knights with these ratios:
1 Giak: CS 14, EP 17
3 Giaks: CS 20, EP 19

1 Death Knight: CS 24, EP 38
3 Death Knights: CS 36, EP 44
4 Death Knights: CS 42, EP 47

In light of these numbers, I would then suggest the following 'rule of thumb' guides:

TIER I targets: (like Giak)
- 1/5 CS, 1/5 EP

TIER II targets: (like Death Knight)
- 1/4 CS, 1/10 EP

So the higher 'level' the target, the more CS and the less EP it contributes.

Comments:
- the 'Tier' refers to the Tier of the enemy, but egleris' point is valid. Also keep in mind that a Tier I character will not face a higher-Tiered enemy that often - and when they do, it is unlikely to be in large numbers, thus negating the need for the Lumping Rules anyway
- to identify the Tier of the enemy, look at which LW series they first appeared in:
Tier I: Kai series (Giaks, Gourgaz, Drakkarim)
Tier II Magnakai series (Death Knights, Ciquali)
Tier III: Grand Master series (Acolytes of Vashna, Cener Druids, Lavas)

[huanchoo]

I see now... so what's the lumping formula for a Tier III opponent? Anybody has any clues?

[egleris]

Oh, so the enemies have a Tier too? I din't knew that. I'm also happy to see my guess was more or less correct... the complete original post is really interesting, by the way. Make everything far clearer.

If I can add a comment based on my own experience, the lumping is probably the way to go if you want the encounter to be easier. There are three way you can threat a fight with multiple enemies in LW:

The first and oldest one, fighting them one at a time, as for example the six soldiers in Gorn Cove. This could be the easiest way if the player has a very high combat ratio against each of them, but if the enemies are stronger, it makes for the hardest fights to survive, and a character would be left really drained after such a string of fights. Luckily, this is also the less realistic way to handle multiple opponents, as it would only make sense if the player has a very vantageous position, that would allow him to focus on a single enemy at a time.

The second one is to use the cumulative bonuses, where every enemy in the fight gain +2 CS for each ally he has. This make for the more bloody result, but is less draining then the other version, simply because it is a more risky "do or die" situation. It also makes the first rolls proportionally more important than the latter ones; the sooner an high roll come, the easier the fight will be as it could kill the weaker opponents, reducing the overall bonuses of every one of them.

The last on is, of course, the lumping; I think this is the way to go if the aim is to make the fight as easy to win as possible, since the total amount of damage the player has to inflict is lower and as such, even with a lower combat ratio, the fight would be shorter and so drain less END then the others two ways.

Just tought that, since the argument had been introduced, it would be nice to give an overview of all the existing methods...

By the way, Akshati, if you had to guess, which rule would you suggest for the Tier III enemies?

[Zipp]

I've actually really come to like the Mongoose grouping method. It was a method I had toyed with even before the RPG came out, but I think it works really well and I enjoy the simplicity of it. Not that this isn't cool, too.

[askhati]

I'm not too familiar with the GM series, so finding examples of combat against varying numbers of the same opponent is a bit trickier than before. The example that did come to mind was the Xaghash - you can face a single one in LW 10-342, and a pair in LW 14-263. Oddly enough, the pair you face in LW 14 cause the Sommerswerd to give double its normal bonuses, i.e. giving +16CS instead of only +8CS.

Single Xaghash (with axe): CS 32, EP 42
Two Xaghash (unarmed): CS 52, EP 60

Taking ratios:
CS = (52-32)/32 = 20/32 ~= 2/3
EP = (60-42)/42 = 18/42 ~= 1/3

This would then suggest that, using these rules:
Single Xaghash (T.II): CS 32, EP 42
Two Xaghash (T.II): CS 40, EP 46
Two Xaghash (T.III): CS 52, EP 57
Two Xaghash (LW14): CS 52, EP 60

Using this rule and applying it to the two Death Knights you encounter in LW 14-288 (based on Cetza Death Knight):
Single Death Knight (LW10): CS 24, EP 38
Two Death Knights (T.II): CS 30, EP 41
Pair of Death Knights (LW14): CS 42, EP 37
Two Death Knights (T.III): CS 40, EP 50

... so the lumping rules will give slightly less CS but a sizable chunk more EP.

If anyone can think of other T.III opponents to compare like this, post the section numbers where the fights occur and we can puzzle it out here.

[egleris]

Well, I've only had the time to check LW13 so far... however, I did managed to find some examples that shoul help, at least for starter.

First of all: the infamous Ruel Giganites. When you face three of them, they're the harsher fight of the book, with CS 50 and END 80 (...)

However, if one has Kai-Surge, one can be removed from the battle; this turn the fight into a more reasonable CS 38, END 60.

If removing one means reducing the CS by 12 and the END by 20, applying the same reduction to the second set of values, we get that a single Giganite has 26 CS, 40 END.

Before analyzing this values, though, there's a second example in book 13 of lumped CS values: the Vahag. There's a lot of data for the Vazhag. To make that clear:

Vazhag Patrol(eight) sect. 262, LW13, CS 40, END 40
Vazhag Pack sect. 258, LW13, CS 32, END 40
Vazhag Pack sect. 25, LW13, CS 34, END 44
Vazhag (alone?) sect. 225, LW13, CS 23 END 23
Vazhag Pack sect. 167, LW13, CS 34 END 44
Vazhag Lancer [mounted] (alone) sect. 147, LW13, CS 32, END 20
Vazhag [fat] (alone) sect. 263, LW13, CS 18, END 28
Vazhag Archer (alone) sect. 275, LW13, CS 22, END 21
Vazhag (group) sect. 74, LW13, CS 26, END 30

This is a total of nine fights involving Vazhag, and many of these fights have several copies of themselves on other sections (different sections, same CS and END values).

One of the problems with the Vazhag is that they're more often faced as a group; and almost each time, the numbers of these groups are not specified. There's an exception, though; when facing the strongest group of Vazhag (going by numerical value) the text specifies that they're eight.

We also have three certain examples of fights with a single Vazhag (the mounted, the archer and the fat), plus the one instance where it's not clear if Lone Wolf is fighting a single one or more then one (that would be the battle in section 225).

I'm not certain if the Vazhag are actually Tier III enemies; going by the calculations I made, they might even be Tier I.

Other then these, there's also another instance in book 13 where Lone Wolf fight a single enemy and then that same enemy in a group:

Acolytes of Vashna [one holding the medallion of protection] (group) sect. 86, CS 36, END 50
Acolyte of Vashna [holding the medallionof protection] (alone) sect. 137, LW13, CS 25 END 40

The problem is, I couldn't found a clue in the text as to how many Acolytes LW is fighting in the section where the Acolytes are a group, so there's not much that can be inferred from that.

So, so far, nothing conclusive; however, if anybody wants to puzzle these numbers, they're there.

I'm pretty much certain the Giganites shouldn't be used as reference... to add half CS and half END seems really far too much.

[askhati]

Yeah, I'm not even going to try and use the Vazhag for getting a rule up, their stats and numbers are just too varied.

Those two Acolytes you mentioned are also problematic, because one has a Medallion of Protection (which you cannot loot afterwards, unfortunately), and the other does not. So the decrease from two combatants to one could be distorted by the Medallion.

The one creature that did come to mind was the Vordak: you can meet them in LW 1, 5, 8 and 14. 1 I would disregard, purely because Dever was still getting the mechanics of the game figured out at that point. This gives us 5, 8 and 14:

LW 05-299: Vordak CS 17, EP 25

LW 08-013: Vordak 1 CS 22, EP 28; Vordak 2 CS 21, EP 26
LW 08-101: Vordaks CS 23, EP 30 ...burial 'monks', number unknown

LW 14-118: Vordak CS 22, EP 28
LW 14-219: 3 Vordaks CS 40, EP 42
LW 14-058: 3 Vordaks CS 28, EP 38 ...in psychic shock

Taking the Vordaks from LW 14 and treating them as Tier II enemies, and using the T.II rules (1/4 CS, 1/10 EP), you get the following:

1 Vordak: CS 22, EP 28
2 Vordaks: CS 27, EP 30
3 Vordaks: CS 32, EP 33

Using the T.III rules (2/3 CS, 1/3 EP)
1 Vordak: CS 22, EP 28
2 Vordaks: CS 36, EP 37
3 Vordaks: CS 50, EP 46

I'm tempted to believe the T.II rules and blame the discrepancy on the 'psychic synergy' that the Vordaks have at that point.

Alternatively:
1 Vordak = CS 22
3 Vordaks = CS 40
So 40 = 22 * (1 + 2*X) ... one opponent at CS 22, and two followers at fraction X of 22
... X = 9/22 ~= 1/2 CS

1 Vordak = EP 28
3 Vordaks = EP 42
So 42 = 28* (1 + 2*Y)
... Y = 1/4 EP

So:
- T.III, using Xaghash base: 2/3 CS, 1/3 EP
- T.III, using Vordak base: 1/2 CS, 1/4 EP

Since the Vordak are more 'human' than the Xaghash (who ARE minor Darklords, after all...), I would suggest using the 1/2 CS, 1/4 EP rule for medium humanoid attackers at T.III, and using the 2/3 CS, 1/3 EP rules for anything larger/stronger than a human.

[askhati]

Just remembered another example: the Egorgh in LW 12, and the 3 Egorghs in LW 14.

LW 12-264: 1 Egorgh CS 24, EP 30
LW 14-318: 3 Egorghs CS 37, EP 42

CS: 37 = 24* (1 + 2*X) ... X = 6.5/24 ~= 1/4
EP: 42 = 30* (1 + 2*Y) ... Y = 6/30 = 1/5

Oddly enough, this seems to be closer to the T.I rule than the T.II rule. However, since the Egorghs are beasts, and first encountered in T.II, one could reason that they should follow the general T.II rule - 1/4 CS, 1/5 EP - but with additional EP to represent their animal nature (will keep fighting when a human would have dropped).

Hmm. This leads to an interesting rule suggestion:

T.I Humanoid: 1/5 CS, 1/5 EP
T.I Beast:

T.II Humanoid: 1/4 CS, 1/10 EP
T.II Beast: 1/4 CS, 1/5 EP (twice as much EP as humanoid)

T.III Humanoid: 1/2 CS, 1/4 EP
T.III Beast: 2/3 CS, 1/3 EP (beasts at T.III are generally stronger than humanoids at T.III)