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Post by Texan Kai on Jul 19, 2014 23:45:18 GMT
To save wear and tear on my old paperbacks, I've been playing the Project Aon version of the books. When I played Book 12, I was surprised to see on section 240: (I added italics for emphasis.)
This permanent reduction to the Endurance is not present in section 240 in the 1989 Pacer edition of the book.
So, assuming that my book does not have an omission, I have a few questions...
1. Why the change? It seems that no players in their right minds would use Helshezag by-the-book with the new rule change unless they have neither the Sommerswerd nor the Dagger of Vashna. It plainly states that the loss of endurance is permanent, thus not restorable by Curing, Laumspur, bed rest, visits from female admirers, etc.
2. What is the lore reason behind the change? I understand that Helshezag is en "evil blade," but so is the Dagger of Vashna, which has no such penalty (or any utility for that matter beyond fighting certain opponents and a chance of one-shotting Kimah.) Was Helshezag designed specifically to kill Kai (similar to a bane enchantment from D&D and Pathfinder), thus it physically hurts Lone Wolf when he uses it, whereas the Dagger of Vashna had no such purpose when it was crafted?
3. Are there any "house rules" that y'all use with respect for the Dagger of Vashna? Endurance-draining or otherwise?
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Post by outspaced on Jul 20, 2014 8:35:13 GMT
The change is one we cribbed from the recent Mongoose Publishing edition, so we assume the change was probably what Joe envisioned when he originally wrote that section. I suppose we can rationalise that the Dagger of Vashna hasn't been used by its namesake for centuries, allowing its inherent evil to bleed off into the aether, whereas Helshezag's owner was using it right up until his death 'a few years ago' (remembering that Lone Wolf stops being the protagonist of the series in Book 20).
Or it could just be a game mechanic that is designed to make the game more challenging for players who do not take the Sommerswerd into Helgedad.
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Post by Texan Kai on Jul 20, 2014 16:19:39 GMT
That makes sense. I had always thought that the Darklords simply compelled the Nadziranim to manufacture and enchant their weapons out of refined Kagonite or some similar material. Taking this theory a bit further, if the Dagger of Vashna can lose its evil simply by lack of use by its evil master, could the "purification process" be accelerated, say by the efforts of the Elder Magi or some other organization? The reclamation of the Darklands starting in Book 13 leads me to think that this might be possible. I don't think this would happen overnight of course. And I can imagine Rimoah advising Lone Wolf to simply melt down Helshezag for the base metal and craft a new weapon, one devoid of evil. (There's an idea for the RPG…  ) Another idea: if the Sommerswerd has a "fail-safe" built into it, such as in Section 79 in Book 2, So would it be feasible for the Darklords' weapons to have similar insurance from improper use? Or perhaps such things could have been done on individual weapons. And yet another thought: Were there any efforts by the Darklords to reclaim the Dagger of Vashna since the Battle of the Maakengorge but before the events of Book 4? I imagine they would not want such a powerful artifact to be out of their control. One would think that unless the Dagger was kept in a Korlinium vault under the highest security round the clock, it would be a fairly simple matter for Zagarna to detail a few Helghasts to simply retake the Dagger from Ruanon. It also makes me wonder why the Dagger was kept at Ruanon (given the proximity to the Maakengorge), and not in a more secure location, say at a secure vault in Holmgard or the Kai Monastery. Unless of course the Dagger was not permanently stored at Ruanon. Perhaps after Vashna's death, the Dagger was taken back to Sommerlund as a war trophy of sorts then later gifted to the lord of Ruanon for political purposes. Just throwing ideas out there. |
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Post by beowuuf on Jul 20, 2014 22:42:53 GMT
Why would any Darklord want Vashna back? The most powerful would lose their chance at the throne, and the least powerful would be most likely to be punished by Vashna for their weakness. And I doubt any Darklord cared about a dagger being out of their control in terms of being harmed by it, not even thinking it might have any power to harm them. Or being too arrogant to care what any mortal wielding it could try to do to them. I believe Vashna's primary weapon was a giant axe too, so no reason to think it had any power. Certainly Lone Wolf does not think to use it against Haakon in book 5  |
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Post by Texan Kai on Jul 21, 2014 0:47:51 GMT
I don't think that the surviving Darklords would want Vashna back for the very reasons you describe. I'm sure they would have been furious at Barraka had he succeeded in Book 4. My point was more along the lines of the Darklords viewing the Dagger as a threat to their well-being, since only their personal weapons (and the Sommerswerd) could permanently kill them. If nothing else, they'd probably want the Dagger back just to safely dispose of it so Vashna wouldn't return and also to remove another weapon that could harm them. Then again more enterprising Darklords might wish to use it to murder a rival. The byzantine schemes surrounding the Dagger could be endless.
This though plays to your good point about the arrogance of the Darklords blinding them to the various possibilities of the Dagger though: there are several instances in the books that demonstrate how the arrogance of various Darklords gives Lone Wolf tactical advantages. The fact that Lone Wolf does not encounter agents of the Darklords in Book 4 leads me to think that perhaps the Darklords may have actually been unaware that the Dagger survived the Battle of the Maakengorge. Of the four Darklords that Lone Wolf kills in personal combat (Haakon, Kraagenskûl, Taktaal, and Gnaag), only Gnaag recognizes the Dagger for what it is*: (Book 12, Section 88: "Gnaag recoils in terror when he recognizes the weapon you wield.") Gnaag apparently was smarter than the other Darklords, so it stands to reason that he might have been the only one actually aware of the Dagger. As you pointed out, it was Vashna's secondary weapon, so perhaps the Darklords didn't even give the fate of the Dagger a second thought after Vashna died. After all, there were more important things to do, like the usual internecine fighting for the throne after the incumbent Archlord perishes. The Game of Thrones: Darklands Edition, as it were.
*Possibly Kraagenskûl does as well, though the text in Book 12 Section 171 is ambiguous on that point: "[The Crypt Spawn] and their creator, Darklord Kraagenskûl, recognize the power you wield and both are in awe and terror of it." It specifies that it is the "power" that horrifies Kraagenskûl, not the actual Dagger being Vashna's. At the same time it doesn't exactly take rocket science to figure out what dagger in all of Magnamund was capable of that kind of power. Taktaal doesn't make any special notice of it (though being severely wounded probably distracted his mind), and as you pointed out, Book 5 gives no option for using the Dagger against Haakon.
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Post by johntfs on Jul 21, 2014 12:21:14 GMT
I would submit that Darklord weapons draw their power from their Darklords and are most active/effective in the presence of other Darlords, especially near the center of their power. Note that in Section 133 of The Master of Darkness Lone Wolf receives the +7 CS against Kraagenskûl but does not suffer the permanent -1 Endurance penalty. Figure that the sword is still able to draw on Naar's power because Kraagenskûl is still alive. Once he's destroyed, Helshezag's link to Naar is mostly severed. There's enough ambient evil in the world to let it slightly repower between combats so that you get that first "free strike" but after that, if you continue to use it in the combat, it draws on the next strongest source of energy - your life force. The Dagger of Vashna works differently because Vashna still exists on some level. Since he's very weak and stuck at the bottom of the Maakengorge, the Dagger of Vashna is mostly dormant. It only activates to its full potential if it's near a very powerful source of evil energy like the Orb of Death (which is why it can affect Kimah) or a Darklord while in the Darklands (figure Haakan wasn't strong enough to cause it to activate because he was outside the Darklands and the Transfusor had not been created yet). If those special cases are met, Vashna's spirit lets the Dagger link to Naar instead of drawing power from your life force. For my part as far as "house rules" go, I assume that if you throw the Dagger of Vashna at Kimah, it will be destroyed when the Orb of Death self-destructs. If you use it in close combat against him this won't happen because you pull the Dagger away from him when you deliver the death blow. As for Helshezag, if I still have the Dagger of Vashna, I have Lone Wolf leave Helshezag beside the Transfusor to be destroyed with it by the Crystal Explosive. Otherwise I take it with me because it can be highly useful to have an "unholy relic" with you at a certain point in the Grandmaster series. |
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Post by Texan Kai on Jul 21, 2014 18:58:00 GMT
That's a great theory, that the weapons require a conduit of sorts for the source of their power. This nature would make those weapons truly vile constructs, rather than mere powerfully enchanted weapons. It fits with the nature of the Darklords quite well. I do wonder where the weapons came from. The first thought that comes to mind is that Naar simply created them as gifts to his champions, similar to how Kai crafted the Sommerswerd. Human origin is also a possibility: throughout the series the Nadziranim crafted various tools and devices for the Darklords and in Book 20 Lord Ardan and Rimoah were able to craft Skarn-Ska after several months of labor. I'm leaning more towards divine origin, given the power that surrounds those weapons (and, in at least the case of the Dagger at the Maakengorge in Book 4, are capable of other feats as well.) |
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