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Post by Oiseau on Mar 23, 2005 22:51:39 GMT
Here's the situation. I recently bought LW 13-20, the Grand Master Saga, which I never played as a kid. We're talking the French editions here, but that's not the point. I decided to play the books as they were written, strictly by the rules. No fancy bookkeeping to increase my odds. Fair and square.
After numerous attempts, I've come to the conclusion that these books cannot be played by the rules (and won), which deeply frustrates me, as I hate being forced to cheat. I'll focus my rant on Book 13, so this stuff might be considered spoilerrific to any Kaï below Grand Master level.
Here's the way I see it. You get 4 GM Disciplines to start with. Having played many times through the books, I know the (very linear) path by heart, yet cannot win fairly, because 4 GMDs aren't enough to offset the insane difficulty. Let's analyze : to avoid eating bridge for dessert (a 40% chance of death), you need Assimilance AND Huntmastery. Since they're also very useful throughout the adventure, I consider them mandatory.
Assume the forest path. Then you need Kai-Surge to face down the Giganites with a reasonable chance of victory. You also need that +8 CS in case of Degradon (when Assimilance meets bad luck), and to stand even a slight chance against Exterminus. Only one Discipline slot remains. However, you need : Alchemy (to avoid losing 16 EP when you encounter the Cener Druid in the woods) ; Pathsmanship (to stand a fair chance of fleeing from Exterminus after 4 rounds, and to avoid the plant-thing in the forest which is immune to Kai-Surge) ; as well as Nexus and Kai-Screen (to avoid various vicious EP losses ranging from 4 to 12 at a time). Remember you can only possess ONE puny dose of Laumspur. You'd need those Cener jars in your initial equipment.
The mountain path is no better. To face the CS=48 water-snake (it's technically CS=43 but the book makes you face it at a -5 CS disadvantage), you still need Kai-Surge to survive 6 rounds. Again, you're only free to choose 1 GMD from the many you could need.
Notice I made no mention of Weaponskill. If you want that +5 CS, you need to lose whatever GMD you chose to avoid massive point losses (Pathsmanship or Alchemy or Nexus or Kai-Screen). I tried this ; you're even more screwed. Same goes for Deliverance. It can give you 20 EP back, but you'll lose them again in five paragraphs flat.
So ... what gives !?
Can anybody give me a solution which respects the given rules ? Meaning : - No made-up rules (dual weapons) - No creative interpretations (bonus-stacking) - No loyalty bonuses (they're only allowed if "you" played Books 1-12 before ; I don't want to play 1-12 every time I want to build an Adventure Sheet for a LW character in Book 13)
The solution must be realistic. It can't depend on lucky rolls at every turn (or in every fight).
It really is impossible, right ?
The Oiseau
P.S. Sorry for the rant-like qualities of the above post, but I needed that. And the question is sincere : How in Naar's Realm can I play by the rules and win ?
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Post by Relenoir on Mar 24, 2005 2:45:27 GMT
Hi Oiseau, sounds like you're a bit frustrated, and rightly so. I've never done the GM books as a stand-alone, but maybe it's time I give them a whirl. Never fear, Relenoir is on the case! I'll try to give this a shot a bit later tonight, and see what I come up with. ;D
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Post by Zipp on Mar 24, 2005 5:23:21 GMT
Oiuseau- I have encountered the same trouble as you when attempting the book without loyalty bonuses. I can make it inside the Cener stronghold, but at some point you become very very screwed. To be honest, I didn't beat it until I rolled a max stat character. Then it's not so bad. Also, it is one of the hardest of the GM quests. Kaag is much easier.
I never loved book 13
Zipp
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Post by North Star on Mar 24, 2005 11:40:03 GMT
I remember Book 13 as the one with Lone Wolf in his full green battle armour on the front cover. Having played (at various times) all the previous books, I go in with all the loyalty bonuses I can remember, including the Sommerswerd. *shrug*
NS.
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Post by Darkash on Mar 24, 2005 13:41:15 GMT
Sounds like a familar story: I think Joe must have been having a bad day when he wrote 13. I don't think I've ever beaten it as a stand-alone, and I have tried on and off for a while. The closest I got was after I dropped the pot and got hit by the chain. I was running at 2 END at the time, hoping for 2 more lucky rolls to make it to the healing. At the time, I had: Grand Weaponmastery Deliverance Kai-Surge Grand Nexus
And yes, I was basically depending on luck to beat the book with these numbers. I took the mountain route with few problems besides the obvious. (Big evil snakes and such.) I am going to try again now, I have some new ideas. Wish me luck.
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Post by Sol on Mar 24, 2005 16:19:39 GMT
Here is a good question:
Are you allowed to restore 1 EP per section? Nowhere in the rules of Book 13 does it explicitly say you can, yet if you look under Magnakai Disciplines, it explains that Curing provides "a steady restoration of EP." Right?
If you allow yourself the +1 per section, it could make a huge difference. Thoughts?
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Post by Black Cat on Mar 24, 2005 16:58:19 GMT
Here is a good question: Are you allowed to restore 1 EP per section? Nowhere in the rules of Book 13 does it explicitly say you can, yet if you look under Magnakai Disciplines, it explains that Curing provides "a steady restoration of EP." Right? If you allow yourself the +1 per section, it could make a huge difference. Thoughts? The last time that I played that book, I had so much difficulties to beat it until that I noticed a thread here saying that you were allowed to use the loyalty bonus of Curing (+1EP per section without a combat). I also decided to stack my Magnakai bonus (I'm still thinking that it was an error to not allowed this for the GM series) and then I made it thru the book...until the falling bridge part! If it would not have been of it, I would have made it with only 10 EP left.
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Post by Darkash on Mar 24, 2005 17:09:13 GMT
Upon further review: I have come breathtakingly close to beating this book alone. I got all the way to the chain-across-the-abyss swing.. then I rolled a zero. Figures. I have found that there are three diciplines that I always bring: Grand Weaponmastery (Sword, Bow) Deliverance Kai-Surge and either Grand Nexus or Kai-Alchemy. If you go Nexus, the mountain route becomes viable, with only that one fight with the snake a problem, and if you go Alchemy, you can go through the forest, avoid the Cener's shot, and have a +3 against evading Exterminous. The forest route seems slightly better, even with more fights, because they won't hurt you as much as the major fight in the mountain. Either way, there are several ugly RN's that you need to hit (although, it is possible to do well even if you fight Degradon (sp) with good CS). As always, the higher the CS, the better your odds, I have been trying mainly with characters that have a CS of 30 or higher base. A 25/30 quest would be impossible under these conditions. The main problem with this route is the real lack of any good deviations from the main route. You are funnelled to several ner impossible fights in a row, without any healing other then that pathetic Laumspur, the +3 in the forest, and the +8 after Exterminous. Why Joe coulden't have thrown in a few more bits of healing in the book is beyond be. (And yes, I do know about the jars, but they are after all the large fights, all that is left is the lancer and possibly the Vashag trackers, nothing major.) And you're right, Kaag is much easier. That one is almost possible as a standalone 25/30 run, much less with all the Cener stuff in your backpack.
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Post by Sol on Mar 24, 2005 17:46:19 GMT
Are you allowed to restore 1 EP per section? Nowhere in the rules of Book 13 does it explicitly say you can, yet if you look under Magnakai Disciplines, it explains that Curing provides "a steady restoration of EP." Right? My question here: if this is a Loyalty Bonus, you shouldn't have it if you are playing 13 as a stand alone. If it is not a Loyalty Bonus, you can have it. In either case, it is VERY important since if you are playing stand alone, Deliverance doesn't give the +1 at all ever, so GMLW would never be able to heal on a section-by-section basis. I would think you could have it in a stand-alone, BUT the book only hints at this - that's the problem
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Post by Oiseau on Mar 24, 2005 21:36:33 GMT
Glad to see I wasn't hallucinating when I said I couldn't finish this book. ;D Still, the claim about Kaag being "almost possible" as a minimum-stat stand-alone run (without the Cener stuff) strikes me as highly dubious. You can deal with the Kraans if you have Kai-Surge, but inside the fortress, you get to fight (in quick succession) the giant boar ; -8 EP thanks to the Helghast ; some Drakkarim (easy fight) ; the monkey thing (CS=44) ; the dragon thing (CS=48 -- and is that the same creature, or what? I never understood that part). If your base CS is 25, I see no way in Helgedad you can win. Yeah, yeah, still complaining. The Oiseau
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Post by Sol on Mar 24, 2005 21:40:11 GMT
Oh yeah,
The monkey-dragon is actually a shapeshifting Nadziranim, but it IS messed up that after you kill it, it is still alive! I mean, they could have just had 2 different ones. Besides, killing 2 Nadziranim would be way more fun, I would think.
Nadziranim must be more powerful than Helghasts... I mean, a Helghast could turn into, say, your mom, or Qinifer, but the Nadziranim can change into a monkey!
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Post by Ofecks on Mar 25, 2005 3:45:01 GMT
the monkey thing (CS=44) ; the dragon thing (CS=48 -- and is that the same creature, or what? I never understood that part) . Protip: You can destroy the "monkey thing" without fighting it by (spoiler) having Magi-Magic and using Flameshaft on your arrow. Aim for it's shell. You need to roll a 7, but in this case you get a bonus of 5 for having GW with the bow. Please note: The PA text calls for Kai-Alchemy on section 11, but that's a typo. Flameshaft is a Magi-Magic ability, according to the improved disciplines section.As far as the dragon goes, there's nothing that can help you except having a high CS. You'll need both G.Weaponmastery and Kai-Surge to help you. If you happened to roll a 9 when creating your character, you'll be at 0 ratio. Just pray your endurance holds out! I'd reccomend finding the potions in book 13 and NOT losing your backpack on the way out. Yeah, it's the same creature, btw. Its spirit morphs three times. Killing the Ice Dragon gets rid of it for good.
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Post by Darkash on Mar 25, 2005 3:56:47 GMT
Glad to see I wasn't hallucinating when I said I couldn't finish this book. ;D Still, the claim about Kaag being "almost possible" as a minimum-stat stand-alone run (without the Cener stuff) strikes me as highly dubious. You can deal with the Kraans if you have Kai-Surge, but inside the fortress, you get to fight (in quick succession) the giant boar ; -8 EP thanks to the Helghast ; some Drakkarim (easy fight) ; the monkey thing (CS=44) ; the dragon thing (CS=48 -- and is that the same creature, or what? I never understood that part). If your base CS is 25, I see no way in Helgedad you can win. Yeah, yeah, still complaining. The Oiseau Alright, maybe I was a bit [thingy]y when I said it was almost possible. However, it is not nearly as evil as Ruel, in fact, if it wasn't for the 48 CS fight, this book would be almost easy. Again, I find Weaponmastery, Deliverance, Kai-Surge, and another dicipline to be useful in this book. Huntmastery is great for + to RN's, but not good for fights or major END loss avoidance. Nexus is great for saving 13 END in some tight spots, but not as much beyond that. Kai-Screen is only good if you like to attempt the route that leads to 3 Laumspur+4; it's seems helpful, but you lose about that much when you are fighting the guys to get into the room. However, for the main fights, there is nothing that really helps you stay alive; Magi-magic is nice, but you need to have played 13 to get the bonus. However, once you make it past the ice dragon, if you have 7END or more, it's game over, in a good way. (Instant death check at the end of the book nonwithstanding)
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Post by Ofecks on Mar 25, 2005 8:14:25 GMT
I've been messing around with book 13 as a stand-alone, and have come up with a somewhat sensible solution. It is still extremely difficult, and success will still require a lot of luck. Let us examine my plan, route, and tough spots. The rest of my post is all massive spoiler stuff, by the way. I discuss the safest ways through some situations. First of all, I am playing with the maximum roll stats. Anything less and it's even more difficult, bordering on impossible. You also need to use the extended combat results table.
Disciplines/Equipment: Grand Pathsmanship - This is used to escape from Exterminus. Otherwise, you face a really nasty insta-death RN roll (even worse than the falling bridge). Kai-Alchemy can help with that roll (+3), but you'd still run a 40% chance of dying there. GP negates the roll altogether.
Assimilance - This is used mainly to help avoid a tough battle inside Mogaruith, but is also used in several other places.
Grand Weaponmastery - You need CS. As much as you can get. YOU MUST DUAL-WIELD. I don't see how completing this adventure is realistically possible otherwise.
Kai-Surge - more CS.
This puts you at 52 total CS and 39 EP. For equipment, get two weapons (sword, axe, and dagger), depending on what you picked for GW. Also grab the 4 meals, Laumspur, and rope. Arrange them on your chart as follows: Rope, Meal, Laumspur, Meal, Meal, Meal. You'll find out why in a bit.
Route: The forest route is impossible with this setup. You need to be able to dual-wield to stand a chance at surviving four rounds with Exterminus, and getting through the forest requires a bow. You could push your luck and give up Assimilance or G. Pathsmanship for Kai-Alchemy (which also gets you out of the forest alive), but you're very much likely to die in a certain battle in Mogaruith that Assimiliance helps to avoid. And without GP, you have to fight the vine-thing up in the trees, and run a risk of insta-death after Exterminus.
Okay, so we're at the entrance to the fissure in the Skardos foothills. Head east when prompted.
You will lose 8 EP from the crab acid for not having Grand Nexus. The laumspur potion should be used immediately (as in, as soon as you read the EP loss text). If you arranged your backpack items as I listed above, you will lose your rope, which is worthless in this adventure, and a meal.
You should hide in the north tunnel to evade the Druid/Vazhag. Let them pass and continue. You can also hide in the cavern since you have Assimiliance, but you still have a 1/10 chance at getting spotted that way.
The water serpent fight (sect 295) goes as follows: you have to deduct 5 CS no matter what. Because you only have one free hand, you must deduct a further 5 points, having lost the ability to dual-wield. That brings you down to a -1 ratio with the monster. Pray that you get 6 decent rolls, and evade.
You will then lose an additional meal. Yes, the text says you lose two items from your backpack, but it says the items listed third and fourth, and doesn't say what to do if you have less than 4. You should only have three at this point, since you ate a meal a few sections ago. Call it cheating, but come on, this book is hard enough as it is. Losing 3 EP due to a missed meal can (and and probably will) spell your doom. If you manage to kill the serpent (ha!), you won't lose any items.
In the flame cavern, choose to use either Nexus or Invisibility when prompted - both have the same effect and lead, more or less, to the same place. If you win the next RN (the one that calls for G. Huntmastery), you'll escape the mountains unharmed. Losing costs you 3 EP.
Hide in the wagon to gain access to Mogaruith. I usually take the Labratory route, since there's nothing of interest in the Library except the Map of Mogaruith, which has the same effect as the Gold Key, which you can get later. Make sure you avoid the Labratory ante-chamber. You can't afford another difficult battle.
Descending the stairs is the easiest way out of the prayer hall. You'll want to investigate the door when prompted to get the Copper Key and a Meal.
Pray to the heavens that you don't lose the next RN (sect 78). You have an 70% chance of winning, thanks to Assimiliance (you need a 3 or higher). If the beast awakens, it's game over for you. Most likely, the trials in the caves left you weakened, and its CS is 49.
Deal with the one-eyed guard by picking the second option, then attacking it when prompted. In Cadak's room, I examine the statuette to get the gold key, but if you got the Map of Mogaruith, you don't have to. Just don't be stupid and check out the glass sphere.
Cadak will cost you 4 more EP before you face Exterminus. You'll need some really lucky rolls to last 4 rounds with him, especially if you get weak enough to where you can't use Kai-Surge. On my last attempt, I died trying to evade. You need to escape with 2 EP or more, since the next section costs you 1. Fire up Grand Pathsmanship. You'll then be rewarded with 8 precious EP for your efforts.
You'll have to face the Acolytes of Vashna in the plague-hall. Even with the 4 CS penalty, you'll be at +12 ratio, so hopefully you'll roll an instant kill (8, 9, or 0). You'll need AT LEAST 6 EP left over to face the worst, should you lose the next RN roll.
When you break the chain, you'll have to use your sword or axe. If you miss this RN, you'll have to fight another battle, but the CS is only 22, so you'll only have to fight one round and lose 1 EP (from Kai-Surge). But then, you stand a greater chance of getting insta-deathed by the chain (40%, as opposed to 20 if you had won the previous RN).
Next we have the infamous chain-swing. You will get no bonuses, and you have a 30% chance of losing. Hopefully you have 3 EP or more remaining to withstand the impact should you roll a 3-6. May the gods watch over you for this one.
If you're still alive, take the east passage when prompted and use your gold key or map to discover the MOTHER LODE of all potion hordes. There's one more battle left, so make sure to drink some of the doses to heal yourself. The battle is pretty easy (CS 32, EP 20), but I'd restore 10-15 EP just to be on the safe side.
Take the secret passage out of the potion room, hide from the patrol, and let Assimiliance work its magic. Take the LEFT staircase, and jump in the moat to escape Mogaruith. Surprisingly, it doesn't hurt you! Make mincemeat out of the Vazhag Lancer, and get ready for the final ordeal...
This is it. The last RN roll. Unfortunately, you can't substitue Kai-Surge, GW, or GP for G.Huntmastery, since you can't expect to make it this far without them. Just close your eyes, pray to Ishir, and roll. You have a 60% chance of surviving. The odds are in your favor. Good luck!
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Post by Sol on Mar 25, 2005 15:25:48 GMT
Omega,
This was EXTREMELY entertaining to read! I have to say I am gearing up for my next try at completing the series sans cheats. Not yet - I decided that I am going to finish painting my WH40K Ork Army first before making my next attempt, but I only have the following left to paint:
24 Grots 3 vehicles Lord Grazkrul some random Ork
I painted 10 figures last night, so at this rate it might not be much longer!
Spoilers I agree with you on all points I think - although usually I take the GHM instead of GPMS for all the bonuses it gives throughout the adventure... BUT you might very well be right! I am going to have to think about what is more valuable. And yes, 13 is HARD. More trouble for readers of the US version, though - it is not possible in this (abridged) version to take the mountain path, so it gets even harder for them. Finally, if you board the wagon for the best entry into Mourgoth - I do agree - but this only works if you are lacking the Cener Mask AND the Cener Robes. Since it is possible that a player will have both (even when going through Skardos) I make a conscious effort to ditch the mask if I find it early on so I have an excuse to ride the wagon. (On the other hand, maybe it is only possible to get both in Skardos if you have GHM, not sure).
Thanks for the awesome play-by-play!
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