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Post by Oiseau on Mar 25, 2005 16:29:48 GMT
Yes, that was very detailed and entertaining, but it kind of proved everything I said. You had to assume maximal stats (nowhere in the rules does it say you can just give yourself the maximum). You had to dual-wield (which is a completely made-up rule I've only ever seen here on Project Aon, and which I consider cheating full-out). And even then, you had to pray Kaï and Ishir more than a few times. Take a calculator out and compute your overall odds of surviving every bad RN, especially without Huntmastery. You do this by multiplying your survival odds together (so a 60% chance of survival, then a 70% chance of survival, yields a 42% chance of survival both times). You'll see the result is painfully low. I can wrap my mind around loyalty bonuses, since Lone Wolf is a Grand Master. It's part of his character definition, so he should benefit from the vestigial +4CS and +6CS, as well as Curing. The only problem is, the book doesn't say so. It does talk about loyalty bonuses, but doesn't tell you what they are. For someone playing by the stated rules, I assert Books 13+ are unplayable ... which is a damn shame, as the stories themselves are quite good. It's true that Kaag is easier, but no cakewalk. Darke is easier still, although strangely linear and dull. I started wondering if you could read all 350 paragraphs on a single go-through. On my first attempt, I ran out of EP facing Magnaarn, with the "turn to 350" staring me in the face. So of course, I turned to 350 anyway. ;D (For that adventure, I gave myself the loyalty bonuses, since I came to the conclusion that you need them to survive) And so, I'll soon play Vashna ... and believe me, I'm skipping the dude with 60 CS points. That's just unfair. The Oiseau
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Post by Sol on Mar 25, 2005 18:55:15 GMT
But you forgot THIS rule. I am sure there is a way! Choose your four Grand Master Disciplines with care, for a wise choice will enable any player to complete the quest, no matter how weak their initial COMBAT SKILL and ENDURANCE scores may be. Successful completion of previous Lone Wolf adventures, although an advantage, is not essential for the completion of this first Grand Master adventure. JK - I am gonna take a look also ... using CS 25, I wanna see for myself... Sol
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Post by Sol on Mar 25, 2005 19:54:52 GMT
Awright, here's a "fake" try (no real rolls)
Disciplines: I am assuming Grand WeaponMastery, Psi-Surge for starters. I'll try to figure out what I want next as I go!
CS would be 38, EP would be 30. The worst possible RN Lone Wolf which Dever claims should still be able to beat the book with a wise choice of disciplines. Of course I am taking the Laumspur, too - 4 EP is peanuts, but I would be a fool not to take it. Also I want a broadsword and a Bow, let's say - the only smart choice, right?
First, I think I will take the Skardos. I think the Gigantes fight will slaughter me.
OK, so I have to take the East tunnel. 8 EP loss if I don't have Grande Nexus. What to do? I assume I don't lose any items if I have my backpack items in the "right" order... let's just say for the moment I take the damage, then the potion...
EP: 26
I can avoid the Rat Men by hiding in the North Tunnel. They leave, I am safe. Next: the dreaded Dholdaarg.
I'm at a -10 Combat Ratio! OK, time to rethink... there's NO way around this guy.
Next, well, what if I took the forest route?
OK, so start over. I will NOT fight 6 rounds at -10!
Off to the forest... I entered by the stream - this seems marginally better. I don't take credit for Pathsmanship or for Animal Mastery. My CS is 30, it has a 35. I am at -5. I am going to assume that I roll all 5's in every combat (average). SO... if I do that, we would both die at the same time, losing 4 each round.
OK, so I need G Pathsmanship. I add it to my required disciplines. If I enter the forest through the gap, I can avoid a tough fight with the Stragnah. This is a relief. Hope it works! I have to lose 4 EP, but I instantly regain it with Laumspur.
When I run into the Zombie Guys, I retreat to the Pits. Then I have to fight the Giganite. It has a CS of 38 like me. I am at CRatio 0. So let's see, if I get all 5's and evade at the first chance: I fight 4 rounds, I lose 12 points, then I evade and lose another 3 points, so I have EP 15 and have evaded. But I lose 6 more from running away, now I have EP 9. With no other special skills, I die when the Cener comes out and blasts me to smithereens.
mmm... OK, I might need Kai Screen as well... ugh! Nope, the druid STILL blasts me.
No escape... no escape...
Ugh, Sol
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Post by Sol on Mar 25, 2005 20:05:06 GMT
OK, hang on, one more try...
OK, picking up with the death of the Giganite:
I have 9 EP left and needed these skills: Grand WeaponMastery Kai Surge Grand Pathsmanship
I am also going to say that I need Deliverance - that's all 4 accounted for.
So anyway, I have 9. I am down to 3 after the acid, I gain 20 EP now. I have 23. From psychic attack I now go down to 19. Then I am blasted for 10 more, So 9.
I have to fight the Vhazag - they have 34 CS. I am at +4. After 3 rounds, I lose 9 points and die.
Ugh, still dead... agh
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Post by Zipp on Mar 25, 2005 23:19:01 GMT
I thought Darke was one of the weakest books Dever wrote. Vashna is one of my favorites. It's very dark and sinister. You are racing against time, and you don't even know what you are racing against. A perfect mix of action and mystery. It is the first book you come across Alyss (though some say you meet her in the Magnakai adventures), and she is actually cool in Dever's stories. It even has a rare piece of backstory!
SPOLIER specifically, I refer to the grisly scene with your brother Jen (did I get the name right? God, it's... been so long...
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Post by outspaced on Mar 25, 2005 23:27:22 GMT
Conversely, I always felt Darke was one of his strongest books, with Kaag easily being one of the weakest, alongside Fire on the Water and Castle Death.
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Post by Zipp on Mar 26, 2005 1:29:44 GMT
Fire on the water? Really?
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Post by Relenoir on Mar 26, 2005 3:04:34 GMT
Conversely, I always felt Darke was one of his strongest books, with Kaag easily being one of the weakest, alongside Fire on the Water and Castle Death. I definitely agree. About the only thing I love about FotW is the fact that you get the Sommerswerd and the overall story/adventure, as well as the descriptives. But it is almost the same every time. I think I realized this less when I was younger and had read them fewer times, but now I don't see it as one of the better books. Castle Death has never been one of my favorites. Part of it is losing the backpack, I'm sure, but for the most part the book had less to do with making intelligent choices and more to do with killing whatever monster showed up in front of you next. There are a couple of cool puzzles in it, but mostly it's just a hack-and-slash, much like Kaag is later, then Trail of the Wolf in the NO books. A few puzzles, but mostly combat.
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Post by snfcn on Mar 26, 2005 3:22:37 GMT
I managed to beat book 13 by the rules and a random number generator that gave me strangly nothing else but 8s. But I'm sure that's all completly proper; I coded the script myself after all. ;D
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Post by Ofecks on Mar 26, 2005 3:39:52 GMT
To get through the forest with a minimum of damage, you need GP (for the vine-thing), Kai-Surge (for the Gigantite), Kai-Alchemy (dodges the Cener's blast and also keeps him from escaping), and Assimiliance (to evade the rat-pack). See how you do with that setup. If you can get past the sleeping beast, I'm willing to bet that the Exterminus fight will be the end of the road. 5 rounds with a -8 ratio at best. Forget it.Castle Death has never been one of my favorites. I don't like Castle Death for one reason - that pic of the skull scares the [nuts] out of me. It always has, I don't know why. The first time I read the PA version, I cried out and jumped when I saw it. When I was younger, I had memorized the three sections in the book it appears (17, 188, 269), so if I ever had to turn to one that was on or near one of those, I could prepare myself to quickly cover up the pic with my hand.
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Post by Zipp on Mar 26, 2005 6:18:29 GMT
I definitely agree. About the only thing I love about FotW is the fact that you get the Sommerswerd and the overall story/adventure, as well as the descriptives. But it is almost the same every time. I think I realized this less when I was younger and had read them fewer times, but now I don't see it as one of the better books. Castle Death has never been one of my favorites. Part of it is losing the backpack, I'm sure, but for the most part the book had less to do with making intelligent choices and more to do with killing whatever monster showed up in front of you next. There are a couple of cool puzzles in it, but mostly it's just a hack-and-slash, much like Kaag is later, then Trail of the Wolf in the NO books. A few puzzles, but mostly combat. Yeah, but how is Darke any different? I still stand by Vashna, Dawn of the Dragons, Masters of Darkness, and the Curse of Naar all being his best. I have a soft spot for Kaag, as it was my first Lone Wolf choose your own.
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Post by Oiseau on Mar 26, 2005 6:45:49 GMT
You know what Darke makes me think of ? A novel. An attempt at a Lone Wolf novel which aborted for whatever reason, and was recycled as a gamebook. It truly has that feel to it -- all story, no gameplay. The only choices you make are random left-right or east-west things where you fight a big monster on one side and avoid it on the other. Or random number picks with the same outcomes. I was lucky on my first run -- I hit all the damn monsters the second time. It's a strange book, that's for sure. And I'm starting to get annoyed at the instant-death rolls before the last paragraph. There's one in Ruel, one in Kaag, and one in Darke (worse than the other two, since it's 20%). But read as the novel it is, Darke is actually a great story. The only flawed part is the 15-day I'm-buried-alive thing, which gets resolved in a 10-line paragraph. Okay, it's 15 days later, you lose all but 15 EP. Hey, cool ! I was down to 16 ! ;D Then you get a few days on Magnaarn's trail to recover (Healing loyalty bonus and/or non-Laumspur potions), so it all evens out. The Oiseau
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Post by outspaced on Mar 26, 2005 9:45:11 GMT
Yeah, but how is Darke any different? There's more storyline to it, I feel. And the writing is far more engaging. It reads very visually (or perhaps cinematically), whereas Castle Death, for example, just sems like a bit of a mess, as Rel says. There was potential there, but for whatever reason it missed far more than it hit. Darke has a more interesting and varied setting. I suppose it all comes down to personal opinion at the end of the day, but when I was buying the GM series as they were released, Darke was the first one that seemed as good as, for example, The Masters of Darkness. FOTW is extremely linear. I had the same experience as Rel that when I was younger, I wasn't really aware of this, but more recently, and particularly after proofreading and playtesting it umpteen times for Project Aon, I find the story very thin and its execution somewhat lacking. I can't complain too much since it was only Dever's second LW adventure, and there are definitely some good bits in there, but on the whole, one to read on 'fast-forward'. Wouldn't necessarily agree with you on Vashna being one of the best, though it does have a strong story, something rather consistent in the GM series (except IMHO Kaag). Masters, Dragons and Curse are all extremely strong contenders for 'best LW adventure'. If you've only ever read the abridged versions of the last two, Zipp, you're definitely in for a treat when PA finally releases them. I'd add The Chasm of Doom--my first ever exposure to Lone Wolf--and The Dungeons of Torgar to the 'best LW adventure' shortlist.
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Post by Nathan P. Mahney on Mar 26, 2005 15:56:36 GMT
What, no love for Shadow on the Sand? It's easily the best of the series in my opinion.
Fire on the Water is a very good read for me, but it suffers once you've done it a few times. It also has annoying instant death rolls...
Chalk me up as another big fan of Dungeons of Torgar, though. It has three fun options for approaching Torgar, and a great cliffhanger.
I can't say I'm much of a fan of Masters of Darkness. It certainly feels special the first time through, but it's a bit too linear for my tastes. I also HATE the final encounter with Gnaag. Anticlimax...
- Nathan P. Mahney -
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deiseach
Kai Lord
Champion of the Sommerswerd
Posts: 170
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Post by deiseach on Mar 26, 2005 22:13:22 GMT
Did Joe ever publically comment on the difficulty of balancing the need for each gamebook to be standalone with the desire to reward people who own all the books? I remember flinging Book 17 against a wall in frustration at the difficult fight in that one (you know who I mean) and I had played books 13 through 16! A novice would surely have found it impossible. Sure Joe was aware of it but chose to go with the diehards . . .
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